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Mass shooter: 0 Armed bystander: 1 Media: -1

I’m still waiting for the video. Was talking to someone in the office today that this raised the bar for us concealed carriers. To be able to recognize the threat, potentially need to turn 180, draw and put accurate shots on target at extended range. I’ll certainly be adding my pistol targets to include the 20, 30, 40, 50 yd lines on my range to run drills moving forward. Looking at a Hellcat or 365 to replace my 43 sooner rather than later.
 
Caveman said:
I’m still waiting for the video. Was talking to someone in the office today that this raised the bar for us concealed carriers. To be able to recognize the threat, potentially need to turn 180, draw and put accurate shots on target at extended range. I’ll certainly be adding my pistol targets to include the 20, 30, 40, 50 yd lines on my range to run drills moving forward. Looking at a Hellcat or 365 to replace my 43 sooner rather than later.
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as much as everyone scoffs at 22's for self defense, is this a situation where you'd want something we're you're almost guaranteed to hit the target at 40 yards, or do you want more firepower and possible less hits. I'm pretty sure I could get 10/10 on body at 40 yards with my Sig (maybe) in under 15 seconds. Whoever you hit is certainly going to have a bad day, even if it's a .22. Thoughts?
 
SteelShooter said:
as much as everyone scoffs at 22's for self defense, is this a situation where you'd want something we're you're almost guaranteed to hit the target at 40 yards, or do you want more firepower and possible less hits. I'm pretty sure I could get 10/10 on body at 40 yards with my Sig (maybe) in under 15 seconds. Whoever you hit is certainly going to have a bad day, even if it's a .22. Thoughts?
Click to expand...

My thought, though I hope I'll never have to stake my life on it, is that while a CNS hit is the gold standard and ANY hit is ideal, even the act of returning fire is going to have a major and immediate deterrent effect on 99% of shooters.

These people are not expecting to have their fire returned, and if bullets start coming their way, they're not going to pause and figure out the caliber. They'll be thrown off; they'll seek cover, or aim back at you, or freeze up, or skedaddle, or shoot themselves. They're not likely to just say to themselves, "huh. Well. Golly. Looks like someone's shooting at me. Well, I'll just go about my plan and pretend that's not happening."

Like I said, I hope I never have to test that theory. But infantrymen know this as "suppressive fire:" you're not trying to kill the bad guy. You're trying to keep his head down so that you can impose your will on him. If you do strike him, that's a bonus.

It's a realization that has me carrying 9mm these days, instead of .45. I might do less damage if I hit, but the value of suppression tells me I might want more rounds.
 
Caveman said:
I’m still waiting for the video. Was talking to someone in the office today that this raised the bar for us concealed carriers. To be able to recognize the threat, potentially need to turn 180, draw and put accurate shots on target at extended range. I’ll certainly be adding my pistol targets to include the 20, 30, 40, 50 yd lines on my range to run drills moving forward. Looking at a Hellcat or 365 to replace my 43 sooner rather than later.
Click to expand...

I've shot both Hellcat and 365 and they're both good, small guns. If you like your G43, but you're concerned about capacity, check out the 43X or a 48. Factory 10+1 with Shield Arms 15+1 available.
 
SteelShooter said:
as much as everyone scoffs at 22's for self defense, is this a situation where you'd want something we're you're almost guaranteed to hit the target at 40 yards, or do you want more firepower and possible less hits. I'm pretty sure I could get 10/10 on body at 40 yards with my Sig (maybe) in under 15 seconds. Whoever you hit is certainly going to have a bad day, even if it's a .22. Thoughts?
Click to expand...
What are you implying here?
Are you saying 22 is more accurate than more commonly accepted self defense calibers?

I would wager that nearly any quality handgun is mechanically accurate enough to hit a human torso size target 100 yards (40 is easy) With every shot.

If you can't do that with your carry gun, it's you, not the gun.

If you can do that with a 22 and not with a larger caliber, that shows pretty clearly that you are recoil shy and can not press the trigger straight.
 
allen-1 said:
I've shot both Hellcat and 365 and they're both good, small guns. If you like your G43, but you're concerned about capacity, check out the 43X or a 48. Factory 10+1 with Shield Arms 15+1 available.
Click to expand...
Thought about those. but figured if I needed to get a new platform that uses new mags. I may as well branch out and try something else.
 
SJan said:
What are you implying here?
Are you saying 22 is more accurate than more commonly accepted self defense calibers?

I would wager that nearly any quality handgun is mechanically accurate enough to hit a human torso size target 100 yards (40 is easy) With every shot.

If you can't do that with your carry gun, it's you, not the gun.

If you can do that with a 22 and not with a larger caliber, that shows pretty clearly that you are recoil shy and can not press the trigger straight.
Click to expand...

It's obvious and shouldn't even need to be stated that it's easier to shoot some guns quicker and more accurately than other guns.

I don't think he's implying a 22 is more mechanically accurate any more than you are implying everyone shoots every handgun with the same speed and accuracy.
 
JoseyWales said:
I know I'm dreaming but, the mall owner (Simon malls?) should come out and say guns are no longer banned at our malls nationwide.
Click to expand...

to do that would acknowledge that their pc position on safe spaces is infantile, ineffective, and flawed. Suits don't like to admit they're basically well-heeled idiots.

Simon malls will do their best to avoid commenting on their policy
 
SJan said:
What are you implying here?
Are you saying 22 is more accurate than more commonly accepted self defense calibers?

I would wager that nearly any quality handgun is mechanically accurate enough to hit a human torso size target 100 yards (40 is easy) With every shot.

If you can't do that with your carry gun, it's you, not the gun.

If you can do that with a 22 and not with a larger caliber, that shows pretty clearly that you are recoil shy and can not press the trigger straight.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's why I'm saying, I'm more accurate with a .22 than with my 9mm or .45 or maybe more precisely, much quicker, that's why I asked the question. Not everyone is an operator.
 
Caveman said:
I’m still waiting for the video. Was talking to someone in the office today that this raised the bar for us concealed carriers. To be able to recognize the threat, potentially need to turn 180, draw and put accurate shots on target at extended range. I’ll certainly be adding my pistol targets to include the 20, 30, 40, 50 yd lines on my range to run drills moving forward. Looking at a Hellcat or 365 to replace my 43 sooner rather than later.
Click to expand...
19
 
SteelShooter said:
as much as everyone scoffs at 22's for self defense, is this a situation where you'd want something we're you're almost guaranteed to hit the target at 40 yards, or do you want more firepower and possible less hits. I'm pretty sure I could get 10/10 on body at 40 yards with my Sig (maybe) in under 15 seconds. Whoever you hit is certainly going to have a bad day, even if it's a .22. Thoughts?
Click to expand...
30 super carry FTW, brah!
 
Bonesinium said:
It's obvious and shouldn't even need to be stated that it's easier to shoot some guns quicker and more accurately than other guns.

I don't think he's implying a 22 is more mechanically accurate any more than you are implying everyone shoots every handgun with the same speed and accuracy.
Click to expand...
Everyone needs a 5.7!!!!
 
G Port said:
to do that would acknowledge that their pc position on safe spaces is infantile, ineffective, and flawed. Suits don't like to admit they're basically well-heeled idiots.

Simon malls will do their best to avoid commenting on their policy
Click to expand...
The unenforced signs do exactly what they want - give them deniability.
If someone has a gun they are trespassing so the mall assumes no responsibility.
 
Caveman said:
Are you telling me to buy a g19? I have 5 g19’s.
Click to expand...
Yes. I suggest carrying one, and a g17 mag for second mag, and there after. I have yet to consider carrying more than one, but I’m not going to argue with your line of thinking.....never done cross draw but I’m open to new skills.
 
xjma99 said:
Yes. I suggest carrying one, and a g17 mag for second mag, and there after. I have yet to consider carrying more than one, but I’m not going to argue with your line of thinking.....never done cross draw but I’m open to new skills.
Click to expand...
I do. I have have 2 duplicate g19 gen 5’s that I interchange for my carry and training pistols. They are my general Go To’s for carry. And I roll with a dual mag pouch and the pistol fully charged. I “hope” 46 rds will be enough to stop a threat with some left over. I am now looking something that is the footprint of my 43 “or so” but with better capacity and shootability for deeper concealment.
 
pastera said:
The unenforced signs do exactly what they want - give them deniability.
If someone has a gun they are trespassing so the mall assumes no responsibility.
Click to expand...
There is a mall being sued because an uninvolved bystander was killed when a civilian gun carrier played the hero game, intervened in a holdup, and someone (not sure if good guy or bad guy) scored a -10 hit (USPSA point value for a no-shoot). The basis of the suit was the mall did not have a sign or code of conduct prohibiting firearms, and that was the cause of the death.

www.kens5.com

Video released from 2017 fatal shooting as part of lawsuit against Rolling Oaks Mall

Jonathan Murphy and his wife were getting their wedding rings cleaned when robbers came in. Another customer pulled a gun, and Murphy was killed in the shootout.
www.kens5.com www.kens5.com
 
Last edited:
Rob Boudrie said:
There is a mall being sued because an uninvolved bystander was killed when a civilian gun carrier played the hero game, intervened in a holdup, and someone (not sure if good guy or bad guy) scored a -10 hit (USPSA point value for a no-shoot). The basis of the suit was the mall did not have a sign or code of conduct prohibiting firearms, and that was the cause of the death.

www.kens5.com

Video released from 2017 fatal shooting as part of lawsuit against Rolling Oaks Mall

Jonathan Murphy and his wife were getting their wedding rings cleaned when robbers came in. Another customer pulled a gun, and Murphy was killed in the shootout.
www.kens5.com www.kens5.com
Click to expand...
Lawyers will literally sue anyone they think they can get money out of, or their insurance company. I know a personal injury attorney who dragged homeowners into lawsuits because someone got bit by a dog in front of their houses, by a dog that was not theirs, and on the public sidewalk. He brought suit against 3 homeowners, none of which owned the dog, which he knew. He does a lot of his fine legal work in JP, east Boston and Chelsea.
 
pastera said:
The unenforced signs do exactly what they want - give them deniability.
If someone has a gun they are trespassing so the mall assumes no responsibility.
Click to expand...

deny responsibility - the cowards way.

They could demonstrate their commitment to safety and security by hiring a phalanx of armed security. Have them be numerous and visible. They could even outfit them in rainbow vests to demonstrate further their commitment to LGBlahbah.

Of course, denying responsibility is better for the bottom line than taking active measures. I give you America's executive class today.
 
Just saw this:

GunFreeZone Blog
@GunFreeZone
Replying to @NRA and @guyrelford
I give you the newest IDPA classifier state:
The Dicken.
Freestyle
Start hands at low ready
Draw from concealment facing target
1 target 40 yards
Ten rounds max, no reload 15 seconds ma
Ten rounds max, no reload 15 seconds max
 
Last edited:
Coyote33 said:
Just saw this:

GunFreeZone Blog
@GunFreeZone
Replying to @NRA and @guyrelford
I give you the newest IDPA classifier state:
The Dicken.
Freestyle
Start hands at low ready
Draw from concealment facing target
1 target 40 yards
Ten rounds max, no reload 15 seconds ma
Ten rounds max, no reload 15 seconds max
Click to expand...
I am suggesting a similar stage for a Hopklnton USPSA match - 1 target, 40 yards, 10 shots Virginia Count (no extra shots allowed).

It will generate interesting stats - time, average # of hits, and percent of shooters who score at least 8/10 hits.
 
tuna said:
I wonder how much this kid could improve if he spent a month or two being mentored by Jerry Miculek? If he can do this "for real" - imagine what he can do on a nice calm range when his only danger is a timer?
Click to expand...
A Bronze Star/Purple Heart of the veteran of the sandbox wars was talking with me while waiting for a stage at a USPSA match and told me that he found the pressure he felt before a stage to be greater than when engaging the Taliban. His explained there was less pressure because the US teams routinely out thought and out fought the Taliban. Great guy. I can only assume he has balls of steel.
 

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