Mass Non-res permit and laws

[ajtactical]

Ok my head hurts from reading Mass laws. I hold a Permit in Maine and I'm taking the Utah permit next week, they will issue me a Mass cert to get a Mass non-res permit. Is it worth it?

Mass is a concern for a couple of reasons, I would like to take a few courses there and my son is moving to NC and I will be driving back and forth from Maine often.


Right now I carry a Glock19, from reading the laws I think I have to just replace the mag with a 10 round one? (for permit carry)


If I don't get a permit and I am traveling through the state from my understanding as long as the ammo is separate from gun (also unloaded of course) and both ammo and gun is out of reach from driver, Im good correct?

Can I have my high capacity mags in the car for traveling through the state?

What about training in Mass will I also have to get 10 round mags or can you use the 10+ mags at the range?

I know lots of questions, all the other posts were old and I didnt want to high jack others posts.

 

[browncoat]

If you are travelling through Massachusetts without a LTC, you need to comply with FOPA. That means the gun and ammo need to be locked up. Out of reach of driver is insufficient and will get you in trouble if you are caught. The status of magazines with regards to FOPA is not clear. If you are going to be travelling through MA with post ban mags, lock them up and do not stop. It's a felony to possess them here if you aren't leo

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[browncoat]

As to whether the mass LTC is worth it, only you can decide. It is often issued restricted, so you would likely not be allowed to carry, and it must be renewed in person annually for $100. Do you want to travel to Chelsea MA every year to spend time renewing an LTC on a work day?

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[tbk5]

A cheap non-descript lockable storage box for the the trunk.... http://www.harborfreight.com/tool-storage/tool-boxes/steel-toolbox-97532.html

 

[Len-2A Training]

Browncoat did a good job of answering some of your questions.

Large-cap mags in MA MUST be DOB 9/13/1994 or earlier to be legal to possess. [EOPS position is that even with the law change, LEOs can't have personally owned newer large-capacity mags either.]

MGL C. 140 S. 131G is a bogus piece of law. A proper reading means that there is NO exemption for anyone w/o a MA NR LTC coming into MA for training/competition with ANY handguns or large-capacity rifles (regardless of mags with it). People do it every day, the wording in the law has been misinterpreted forever and many sites claim it is legal, but it isn't legal and so far people have just been lucky.

Yes traveling to Chelsea for an annual interview/fingerprinting is a royal PITA plus the $100/year and waiting 5-6 months to get a NR LTC is way over the top. If you can articulate really good reasons for a non-restricted NR LTC you will likely get one, otherwise all you get is a permission slip to have it locked in your car on your way to/from the state.

The other threads may be old but not much has changed wrt NR LTCs over the past number of years.

 

[ajtactical]

Holly crap it is worse then I thought, is there a list of approved guns in mass like cali has? Maybe the shield would be a better choice to take with me if I take a course down there. This sucks cause Maine training classes are far and few.

 

[ajtactical]

A cheap non-descript lockable storage box for the the trunk.... http://www.harborfreight.com/tool-storage/tool-boxes/steel-toolbox-97532.html

That is a tool box so anything is legal to lock it up in? Ammo and gun in the same box?

 

[Len-2A Training]

Holly crap it is worse then I thought, is there a list of approved guns in mass like cali has? Maybe the shield would be a better choice to take with me if I take a course down there. This sucks cause Maine training classes are far and few.

Gun doesn't matter (unless it fits the definition of a MA AW - typically AK/AR pistols). The mags are what matter wrt handguns. Just NO handguns at all w/o MA NR LTC (unless driving straight thru under FOPA - and then read FOPA requirements VERY CAREFULLY as they are different from laws wrt transporting guns in NH/ME/VT)!

That is a tool box so anything is legal to lock it up in? Ammo and gun in the same box?

NO doesn't comply with FOPA's requirements.

If you have a MA NR LTC (even if restricted to no CCW) you can lock ammo and guns up in the same box if MA is your destination. W/o MA NR LTC, you must comply with FOPA and that requires ammo to be in a separate container from the gun.

 

[ajtactical]

OK well I'll read about fopa since I don't even remember what that stands for. Lol thanks I'm sure I'll be back with more questions. My fiends all say they just put it in the trunk unloaded. I'm glad I don't listen to my friends

 

[ajtactical]

A little rant here but it is kinda Un American to have to be a lawyer to exercise your 2nd amendment right, if you can even claim you still have that right in mass. Didn't know how good we have it in Maine as far as guns go.

 

[Len-2A Training]

OK well I'll read about fopa since I don't even remember what that stands for. Lol thanks I'm sure I'll be back with more questions. My fiends all say they just put it in the trunk unloaded. I'm glad I don't listen to my friends

For your reading pleasure.

General info on FOPA:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act

Copy of the actual law:
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/STATUTE-100/pdf/STATUTE-100-Pg449.pdf

Some good (and some bad) info on FOPA:
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/75580-FOPA-in-Massachusetts
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/5276-FOPA-Doesn-t-Apply-in-NY-NJ!
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...nivan-when-travelling-through-MA-with-handgun

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A little rant here but it is kinda Un American to have to be a lawyer to exercise your 2nd amendment right, if you can even claim you still have that right in mass. Didn't know how good we have it in Maine as far as guns go.

What gave you the idea that Mass was part of America??

 

[ajtactical]

One of the law's provisions was that persons traveling from one place to another cannot be incarcerated for a firearms offense in a state that has strict gun control laws if the traveler is just passing through (short stops for food and gas), provided that the firearms and ammunition are not immediately accessible, that the firearms are unloaded and, in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment, the firearms are located in a locked container.[SUP][11][/SUP]Under this provision, someone driving from Virginia to a competition in Vermont with a locked hard case containing an unloaded handgun and a box of ammunition in the trunk could not be prosecuted in New Jersey or New York City for illegal possession of a handgun provided that the individual did not stop in New Jersey or New York for an extended period of time.

See 18 USC § 926A http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/926A

Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.

Ok so I understand this but find it funny, when my nephew got back from his second tour in Iraq, he was stationed down south. I had stored his guns at my house and he said he called Mass state police and they told him they to be in the open and no bullets. lol

Im not seeing anything about a approved lock box, I have a hatchback so this is a important thing for me, sucks cause I have to have two by my understanding. One for the gun and one for the bullets, sounds like Canada.

 

[ajtactical]

Browncoat did a good job of answering some of your questions.

Large-cap mags in MA MUST be DOB 9/13/1994 or earlier to be legal to possess. [EOPS position is that even with the law change, LEOs can't have personally owned newer large-capacity mags either.]

MGL C. 140 S. 131G is a bogus piece of law. A proper reading means that there is NO exemption for anyone w/o a MA NR LTC coming into MA for training/competition with ANY handguns or large-capacity rifles (regardless of mags with it). People do it every day, the wording in the law has been misinterpreted forever and many sites claim it is legal, but it isn't legal and so far people have just been lucky.

Yes traveling to Chelsea for an annual interview/fingerprinting is a royal PITA plus the $100/year and waiting 5-6 months to get a NR LTC is way over the top. If you can articulate really good reasons for a non-restricted NR LTC you will likely get one, otherwise all you get is a permission slip to have it locked in your car on your way to/from the state.

The other threads may be old but not much has changed wrt NR LTCs over the past number of years.

So you are saying that going into mass without a LTC for a competition or class is technically illegal?

 

[browncoat]

So you are saying that going into mass without a LTC for a competition or class is technically illegal?

This is one of those cases where it is technically illegal, but in this day and age when things are so regulated laws get broken every day by just about everyone. The more important thing is whether prosecution is likely, and I don't think anyone has ever brought forward a case of prosecution so competitions are likely fine regardless of their legality.

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Ok so I understand this but find it funny, when my nephew got back from his second tour in Iraq, he was stationed down south. I had stored his guns at my house and he said he called Mass state police and they told him they to be in the open and no bullets. lol

Im not seeing anything about a approved lock box, I have a hatchback so this is a important thing for me, sucks cause I have to have two by my understanding. One for the gun and one for the bullets, sounds like Canada.

Yup, think of MA like a foreign country and you are on the right track

 

[Len-2A Training]

So you are saying that going into mass without a LTC for a competition or class is technically illegal?

No technicality about it. It is illegal. The fact that most are unaware or mis-read the law won't cut it as an excuse if you get stopped and caught. Read S. 131G like you were in 9th grade English class (it's all about proper construction of a sentence) and you should see what I mean. NO other state in the US (I am told by atty Jason Guida, when he was the Director of FRB) has ZERO forgiveness of MJ possession convictions and thus no other state's licenses qualify for the exemption spelled out in 131G. I am aware that NH, ME, PA and FL all have forgiveness after x years (x=3 to 7 years depending on which state) as I have licenses from all of these states and have read their licensing criteria very carefully before filling out their applications so that when I teach others I am giving them correct info.

BTW, Mass State Police just like local PDs are almost totally ignorant of the MA gun laws. The raw text of MA gun laws (before the 8/14 changes) consisted of 250 pages with no annotations/explanations. A retired chief publishes a book 2x/year that runs 450 pages that includes explanations of most of the sections of MA gun laws.

 

[ajtactical]

wow, I guess Ill wait till the classes I want to take either come back to Maine or NH. I'm still confused on what is a acceptable lock box need for driving through mass. In one of the links posted above I came across MGL C. 140 S. 131C and 131L, but that is a mass law.

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We lucked out in Maine, Thank God for Article 1 section 16! If we didn't have that in our Constitution Portland would have guns banned already

 

[JAD]

What you have to remember about the safe passage provisions of FOPA is that they represent (what federal courts have ruled to be) an affirmative defense to prosecution, rather than a right. The effect of that is that it becomes something that a criminal defendant may legally justify why they are not criminally liable. (In Connecticut, where I live, a criminal defendant asserting an affirmative defense has to prove applicability of the affirmative defense by preponderance of the evidence. I'm not so familiar with Mass. burden of proof requirements- I know that Massachusetts is a little more complicated, based on some of the case history, but my understanding from Brodin and Avery's Handbook of Massachusetts Evidence generally "shifts the burden of persuasion" to the defendant. )

 

[Len-2A Training]

What you have to remember about the safe passage provisions of FOPA is that they represent (what federal courts have ruled to be) an affirmative defense to [STRIKE=undefined]prosecution[/STRIKE] conviction, rather than a right. The effect of that is that it becomes something that a criminal defendant may legally justify why they are not criminally liable. (In Connecticut, where I live, a criminal defendant asserting an affirmative defense has to prove applicability of the affirmative defense by preponderance of the evidence. I'm not so familiar with Mass. burden of proof requirements- I know that Massachusetts is a little more complicated, based on some of the case history, but my understanding from Brodin and Avery's Handbook of Massachusetts Evidence generally "shifts the burden of persuasion" to the defendant. )

FIFY, it's not so subtle of a difference, a competent firearms law knowledgeable attorney and many thousands of dollars required!

 

[TomMalthus]

I deleted my post and moved it to the correct forum.

 

[RImike]

Just curious, if a CT court can rule that knives are considered "arms", (State v. DeCiccio) and covered under the 2nd and FOPA, why aren't magazines as well? Or is that to much logic?

 

[JAD]

FIFY, it's not so subtle of a difference, a competent firearms law knowledgeable attorney and many thousands of dollars required!

I have never heard anybody use that wording before, though that is the purpose...

Definitely. They would need counsel with both criminal defense experience AND firearms knowledge in that kind of situation.

 

[JAD]

Just curious, if a CT court can rule that knives are considered "arms", (State v. DeCiccio) and covered under the 2nd and FOPA, why aren't magazines as well? Or is that to much logic?

When you think about DeCiccio, you need to remember that the CT dangerous weapon situation is kind of interesting and awkward.

Prior to (appx) 2000, an individual in Connecticut could get a permit to carry a dangerous weapon (weapons other than pistols/revolvers) from local CLEOs. The permits were valid only in the town of issuance and many towns restricted issuance to residents (though there were cases that went to appeal which affirmed a greater eligibility right). The dangerous weapon permit allowed possession of a dangerous weapon outside of the home/business outside of the specifically enumerated exemptions to the prohibition on possessing a dangerous weapon (e.g. on duty LE, .mil duty use/ travel to duty station, repair, etc....) When the dangerous weapons permits were eliminated, several additional exemptions were added (such as licensed hunters, trappers and anglers being able to carry knives defined as dangerous weapons) and the law retained the ability to possess in one's home/ place of business. The law had no provision to allow for transport when moving or from place of purchase to place residence/ business, as there is when an individual buys or has a pistol but no carry permit. It was that transportation element that caused the court to rule in favor of DeCiccio, who was in the process of moving between residences when arrested. Individuals who lawfully own large capacity magazines can transport them for a variety of reasons to a variety of places, including moving between residences.

It is also important to remember that DeCiccio was a state court case. If broadly applied, DeCiccio could set precedent for moving a variety of dangerous weapons (term of art), some of which other states' (such as New York) courts have ruled are not covered by any second amendment protection.

FOPA safe passage as written was intended to address what was an issue at the time. In 1986, there were minimal state and local laws regarding magazines. Only a few cities in the entire country had outright prohibitions, and those had varied thresholds. Only a couple of state's laws were particularly problematic and there weren't high profile stories of prosecution- because of how narrowly defined the laws were and how few situations they were applied to (because of local attitudes and relative lack of magazines effected). Stories of travelers being arrested in states like NY and NJ were, however, more common.