Marlboro Gun Show - January 26th and 27th, 2008

Hey guys, can anyone tell me who was running the big table against the back wall, to the right of the table with all the beef jerky? They have the rifles in racks with the model/price written on paper taped to the stocks. I saw a rifle I should have picked up while I was there, and I'd like to see if I can still track it down.

-TD

Tony,

I'm almost positive that was "Gun and Gun Parts", they're located somewhere Metro-West. I bought a Ruger 10/22 from them at last years show, got a great deal and they were great to deal with

Scully is right. It was Gun and Gun Parts.
 
Someone tried to steal a gun?

I was there all day both days working the USPSA safe hangun competitor course booth and did not hear anything about it. Anyone else?
We had several guns out on our table to exemplify the different divisions within the sport and a DVD of Jim Scouten in "This is the USPSA".
We were told on Sunday morning that we needed to secure the five handguns on display to the table. We had never done this in the past and had no issue on Saturday. That incident MAY have been the reason they forced us to cover the handguns with that plastic netting material.

While I was shopping, one of my assistants had an "interesting" conversation with a patron who informed him that "You can't have THAT gun in MA. It's illegal". My friend could not get him to elaborate on the point and we never saw him again to follow up. Thus I have NO idea the reason for his statement.

We had five handguns one display. See if you can guess which one caused the ire.
1. Glock 21 .45ACP with a contoured frame, magwell, iron sights and some grip tape.
2. Box stock Glock G-17 9mm.
3. S&W Model 65-2 .357 magnum. Stainless with Pachmayer grips.
4. Les Baer Premier II .38 super with dot scope and tripple port compensator built on a Caspian frame/slide set.
5. Custom built Caspian single stack .45 ACP 1911.

Have fun! [smile]
 
OK, let me put this plainly: YOU CAN'T CARRY. At the door, you unload your piece, they put a wire tie through the action and keep the the ammo and/or magazine. You get it back when you leave. They have a sign up warning you about it and you WILL get your sorry ass arrested if you get caught. Darius' phone number is at his website: www.massgunlaw.com. Tell him I said hi.

.

What is the legal justification for arresting you if you carry a concealled weapon at the show and get caught. I know of no MA law. I would like to know what I don't know. Thanks
 
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What is the legal justification for arresting you if you carry a concealled weapon at the show and get caught. I know of no MA law. I would like to know what I don't know. Thanks

Trespass after notification, I think is the term. IOW, they've set conditions and notified attendees before hand what they are. You have a choice as to whether you want to go in and comply or not.

Whether you would actually be arrested or just tossed out probably wouldn't be decided until you (the hypothetical you) were caught.

I'm sure one of the lawyers can, if so inclined, further elaborate. You aren't violating firearms law, you're violating trespassing law. Of course if the Marlboro PD notified your COP, he could decide that your inability to comply with simple rules makes you unsuitable.

Then Cross-X, Scrivener, or some other firearms attorney can make a tidy sum trying to defend you. I'm sure he'll think of you every time he fires his new high end 1911. [grin]

Gary
 
Trespass after notification, I think is the term.
Consider this:

A theater owner puts up a similar sign regarding cell phones. A patron uses a cell phone, is confronted by the staff, and offers to immediately take the cell phone out to his car. The owner feels that his "trespass after notice" has been violated and calls the police. The police arrive, the owner has already removed the cell phone from the premises, and is behaving a calm manner being polite to everyone. Will an arrest be made?

It's clear that a trespass notice can ban someone from private property, but less obvious that a property owner can turn any behavior they wish into a crime by posting a notice of rules and that violation of any rule constitutes trespass.

You can't tell from the law if it's possible to post a conditional trespass notice, of if the law simply gives property owners the right to bar anyone they wish from their premises.
 
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It's clear that a trespass notice can ban someone from private property, but less obvious that a property owner can turn any behavior they wish into a crime by posting a notice of rules and that violation of any rule constitutes trespass.

You're absolutely right. To arrest or not would be totally up to the police. In the case of a gun show with a police officer or officers on scene, it might be a bit different, but maybe not.

Still, the officer could detain the person for purposes of determining if they were licensed and use the information from the LTC to notify the issuing authority of the incident. Which in truth might be the bigger problem depending on what city or town it is.

Gary
 
You're absolutely right. To arrest or not would be totally up to the police.
But it's not clear if a crime has even been committed simply by "violating conditiions" if the individual has not been told they are not permitted entry, or told to leave - it would take a court decision to know for sure, and a decent attorney to know with any degree of reasonable confidence.

If "violating conditions == trespass" businesses could criminalize any behavior they wished from violating dress code, use of cell phones, speaking too loudly, etc. simply by posting a sign.
 
But it's not clear if a crime has even been committed simply by "violating conditiions" if the individual has not been told they are not permitted entry, or told to leave - it would take a court decision to know for sure, and a decent attorney to know with any degree of reasonable confidence.

I guess we'd need a volunteer for a test case then.

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

Gary
 
You're absolutely right. To arrest or not would be totally up to the police. In the case of a gun show with a police officer or officers on scene, it might be a bit different, but maybe not.
Exactly - in this case, the officer would be called over to whoever was carrying - and since the officer is the guy you go past to get IN, I'd imagine that he wouldn't be in a very forgiving mood, as you basically have already lied to him. [hmmm]
 
Exactly - in this case, the officer would be called over to whoever was carrying - and since the officer is the guy you go past to get IN, I'd imagine that he wouldn't be in a very forgiving mood, as you basically have already lied to him. [hmmm]

So it seems you are saying that if the gun show, or the mall, or the movie theater or hospital or the car dealership or the Stop and Shop put up a sign that said no legally concealed weapons allowed, and you go there anyway, that you are subject to a trespass charge. Seems to me that a place of public business does not have the right to restrict your otherwise legal concealed carry of a weapon, or everyone would be doing it. In some states like SC, the law states that places of business do have the right, but I know of no law in MA that gives business the right to restrict legally concealed weapons. they may have the right to ask you to leave for violating there policy, but if it was a criminal offense, there would have to be a law stating that places of business have the right to restrict legal weapons, cell phones etc.

I am not arguing or stating fact, I am just trying to understand where I am allowed or not allowed to go while armed. And it just got confusing.
 
In order for an officer to arrest, there has to be a statute against your action. So can the mall post a sign that says nobody allowed with long hair and if you go shopping and have long hair, you can be arrested for conditional trespass?

This just doesn't sound right. Private property for public business must have different legal trespass statutes than private property.
 
Yeah, I know. [thinking]

I suspect that, this being MA, the gun show will come in for special attention, basically. Some place like Jarod's (or however that new jewelry store in Burlington spells it) with signs saying "no carrying" has no force because, as you say, there IS no law in MA that gives the property owner the ability to have that enforced.

Guess it comes down to how important it is to you to carry concealed at a gun show. *shrug* Me, I'll just carry a speedloader and a wirecutter. If I really need to, I imagine I can have my gun loaded pretty quickly again.
 
Seems to me that a place of public business does not have the right to restrict your otherwise legal concealed carry of a weapon, or everyone would be doing it.

It's THEIR property, so they can set whatever rules they want. If you don't like, don't do business with them.

It's like this forum. Derek owns it and runs it. He pays whatever costs there are. He sets the rules as to what can and can't be discussed, what language can and can't be used, and who can and can't post. Those who don't want to or can't abide by those rules are dealt with.

I would think that people on this forum, of all people, would grasp the simple concept of private property rights.

It's this simple. The people who run gun shows, for whatever reason, generally don't allow loaded weapons by attendees. They put up a sign to that effect at the door. Whether they can have you arrested or not is not the issue. The issue is they don't want you to carry and they are literally running the show. If you can't live with that, then DON'T go to the show.

Gary
 
It's THEIR property, so they can set whatever rules they want. If you don't like, don't do business with them.

It's like this forum. Derek owns it and runs it. He pays whatever costs there are. He sets the rules as to what can and can't be discussed, what language can and can't be used, and who can and can't post. Those who don't want to or can't abide by those rules are dealt with.

I would think that people on this forum, of all people, would grasp the simple concept of private property rights.

It's this simple. The people who run gun shows, for whatever reason, generally don't allow loaded weapons by attendees. They put up a sign to that effect at the door. Whether they can have you arrested or not is not the issue. The issue is they don't want you to carry and they are literally running the show. If you can't live with that, then DON'T go to the show.

Gary

I am not advocating blowing off the sign and doing what I want.

I agree completely, don't like the policy, don't go. Want to go, be a resposible person and adhere to the policies.

However I was questioning the legality of the post that said 'you will be arrested.'

It is my understandingt that before anybody can be arrested for trespass at a place of business, since a place of business has an open invitation to the public, ( unlike your house) that someone with the authority to act in place of the owner must serve a written or verbal warning to be trespassed, then if that person refuses or comes back it is a violation of trespass law.

Again I try to discuss a topic to clarify an issue and I get the if you don't like it leave answer. Being a LE officer, I tend to want to know the justification for things instead of just someone's opinion. I was never advocating anyone should be a jerk and sneak a weapon into the show. I just wanted to know the justification for being charged with a crime if someone did it anyway like someone posted above.
 
It is my understandingt that before anybody can be arrested for trespass at a place of business, since a place of business has an open invitation to the public, ( unlike your house) that someone with the authority to act in place of the owner must serve a written or verbal warning to be trespassed, then if that person refuses or comes back it is a violation of trespass law.

OK, so which part of there is a sign posted at the front door stating that if you bring in ammo you are trespassing isn't clear.

Again I try to discuss a topic to clarify an issue and I get the if you don't like it leave answer.

No one suggested you leave.

Being a LE officer, you should be able to tell US what statute applies.

Gary
 
I suspect that their reasoning is that they put up a sign saying that you'll be considered to be trespassing (or however it's phrased), so they feel that you've gotten a warning.

At least, this is what was explained to me at the last show I was at. Whether or not they're correct... I couldn't tell you. If the LEO there agrees with it, then yes... you're going to get busted. Even if it gets thrown out of court, you've still got an arrest on your record.
 
OK, so which part of there is a sign posted at the front door stating that if you bring in ammo you are trespassing isn't clear.



No one suggested you leave.

Being a LE officer, you should be able to tell US what statute applies.

Gary

Gary,

I couldn't go this time, so I didn't see the sign. Last time I was there I didn't see a sign,( years ago). If the sign said bring ammo into the show constitutes a violation of your invitation or constitutes a reason for trespass, then fine. If it just said no concealled carry, than that is not a trespass notice as far as I understand.

And I meant leave as in leave the show or don't go, instead of trying to understand the justification.

Anyway, I'm a LEO , but very specialized and have nothing to do with MA law.

I always agree, go someplace and abide by the rules as stated, I was just wondering what justification there is and why all the anti-gun businesses don't do the same thing if it's legal.
 
Gary,

I couldn't go this time, so I didn't see the sign. Last time I was there I didn't see a sign,( years ago).

You are allowed to carry, but you have to check your ammo at the door. The people who check in your ammo then put a wire tie through the weapon so you can't reload it without cutting off the tie.

I've seen the sign at every MA show I've been to over the past three years. I don't recall if it was posted at the NH show I've gone to.

I always agree, go someplace and abide by the rules as stated, I was just wondering what justification there is and why all the anti-gun businesses don't do the same thing if it's legal.

Maybe it's because most of them don't even think about it in the normal course of business.

Gary
 
Getting in trouble for carrying a GUN at a GUN show is like getting a speeding ticket while racing in Daytona 500 [wink]

Pretty good analogy. Both cases are where the participant is not the intended participant, but more of an observer or customer.
 
I am not advocating blowing off the sign and doing what I want.

I agree completely, don't like the policy, don't go. Want to go, be a resposible person and adhere to the policies.

However I was questioning the legality of the post that said 'you will be arrested.'

It is my understandingt that before anybody can be arrested for trespass at a place of business, since a place of business has an open invitation to the public, ( unlike your house) that someone with the authority to act in place of the owner must serve a written or verbal warning to be trespassed, then if that person refuses or comes back it is a violation of trespass law.

Again I try to discuss a topic to clarify an issue and I get the if you don't like it leave answer. Being a LE officer, I tend to want to know the justification for things instead of just someone's opinion. I was never advocating anyone should be a jerk and sneak a weapon into the show. I just wanted to know the justification for being charged with a crime if someone did it anyway like someone posted above.

Mach,
I get what your asking, I too would like to know the statute by which an LEO has the powers of arrest pertaining to your question[wink]
Like you, some poster saying it's so ,or, then just don't go if you don't like it, doesn't cut the mustard with me either, statements like these are opinions, not facts.[rolleyes]
Please post if you find the pertaining laws and I will do the same.
 
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IANAL but here are my thoughts on the matter.

If you were discovered to be carrying a loaded weapon inside the show you would be then asked to leave the show. After being asked to leave and you did not leave, you could be then charged with trespassing.
 
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