Marine Corps Taps Trijicon to Make New Squad Common Optic

M60

NES Member
Rating - 100%
56   0   0
Joined
Sep 24, 2010
Messages
5,486
Likes
4,167
Location
Occupied Massachusetts
Have you ever actually been to a Marine Corps qualification range? I'm just an OK shot and typically lose to a 74 year old at OCSA Garand shoots, but somehow managed to out-shoot 3 companies of Marines at my last qualification (with fixed magnification 4x Acog and M16A4). Most of these guys don't get the trigger time they need to even become proficient at identifying and clearing malfunctions, let alone be able to manipulate a variable magnification optic.

There was a very simple 'tick' with the Acog's we used, where after making an adjustment, you had to smack the thing to get the springs to move and let the adjustment register...most of the Marines I coached couldn't even handle THAT.

"Hey Marine...your shot was still in the same spot as your last group. Did you smack your optic like I told you to...?"

crickets.

I was one of the last Marines to train with irons at PI. Literally every Marine under my charge went through basic with optics. As soon as I got to my unit there was a fresh new M16A4 with an ACOG waiting for me. I've seen both sides, and actually MUCH prefer combat optics in the way of an ACOG, even though I shoot more accurately with irons. The confidence I always had that when I looked into my eyepiece, I knew what I was going to be looking at.

I'll believe it when I see it working well (and it very well may)...but for the time being, I'm a big proponent of the ACOG...simple, durable, effective out to 600m (pretty much the effective range on a point target for M855).
Um, Yes. I have been to a Marine Corps qual range. I learned on iron sights out to 600 yards. Today I prefer optics, but tend to try to memorize the clicks for each distance for my load.
My point was that the bad guys, might not always give Marines a choice, regarding the distance at which they are forced to engage. A optic better suited for a greater variety of distances can't be a bad thing. When a Marine knows his ass will be on the line, he'll learn what he has to learn to survive and he'll learn it quickly. In boot camp as well as ITR, and on the jungle training course at Pendleton, we trained with M14's. When the guys got to Nam, they were handed M16's. No one had seen a M16 before. The next day they were carrying these M16's in the bush. They learned quickly.
Another thing to consider, is that from what you said, The guys that you were working with, sound like other than 0311 types. It's 0311's, that will be doing the shooting for the most part. I never met a 0311 that couldn't shoot, after having been taught.
 
Last edited:

fencer

NES Member
Rating - 100%
9   0   0
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
11,568
Likes
8,332
Location
Southeastern Mass
Have you ever actually been to a Marine Corps qualification range?
[rofl] [rofl] [rofl] [rofl]
Yeah, he has... and the two way range as well.

I can not see any draw backs to being able to effectively engage a target at 800 + yards, provided it does not come at the price of being effective at CQB. If a couple of grunts can harass a mortar team on a distant hill top until they can be dealt with, what's not to like? Now I know the lethality of 5.56 at that range is compromised, but I still wouldn't want to get hit by it.
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Dec 16, 2015
Messages
1,291
Likes
888
Location
Down the rabbit hole, somewhere in Paradise.
P
6-8x is definitely beneficial for 5.56, especially some of the modern cartridges used by the DoD. It's not so much for increasing shot accuracy, but positive identification of targets is so crucial in modern combat against insurgencies, terrorist organizations, and grey-zone conflict.
I used the Savage .223 on coyote with good effect on 4X. But you are correct that having more magnification close at hand is a definite asset.
 
Rating - 100%
3   0   0
Joined
Dec 26, 2010
Messages
1,173
Likes
451
So you don't believe the Corps should be able to engage targets at greater distances, if it's possible, when needed or required?
Yes, I do. It's called artillery. Give me your tactical reasoning behind engaging targets with an M4 at 900 meters. Are you kinetic? Conducting a KLE? Short patrol around the local city near the FOB?

Why would I needlessly draw fire when I can spot a fighting position and either tell my .50 gunner to engage or give the arty guys a work out? Maybe the 120mm mortor guys would like to play. Or even better... move the f*uck out and charlie mike the original mission of winning hearts and minds
 

PappyM3

NES Member
Rating - 100%
12   0   0
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
1,537
Likes
992
Yes, I do. It's called artillery. Give me your tactical reasoning behind engaging targets with an M4 at 900 meters. Are you kinetic? Conducting a KLE? Short patrol around the local city near the FOB?

Why would I needlessly draw fire when I can spot a fighting position and either tell my .50 gunner to engage or give the arty guys a work out? Maybe the 120mm mortor guys would like to play. Or even better... move the f*uck out and charlie mike the original mission of winning hearts and minds
Realistically, the extra magnification is much more useful in being able to get positive ID of target or even just finding a concealed threat, at distances past a couple hundred meters, but within the max effective range of 5.56.

But, I’ll play along and challenge your assertions. Shooting 5.56 past its max effective range is situation dependent. I’ve put rounds on e-type targets at a UKD range with my 4x ACOG and M4 out to 800+ meters. The shots probably wouldn’t be lethal, but they’ll interrupt an enemy’s OODA loop. And there are times when you don’t always have crew served weapons with you and may not have artillery or CAS on station. Maybe you have them available, but you’re on the other side of a mountain and your comms are too crappy to call it in. If you’re taking fire from a DShK and you don’t have a covered route to retrograde, you need to put rounds on target, even if it’s farther than you’d normally shoot 5.56.
 

M60

NES Member
Rating - 100%
56   0   0
Joined
Sep 24, 2010
Messages
5,486
Likes
4,167
Location
Occupied Massachusetts
Yes, I do. It's called artillery. Give me your tactical reasoning behind engaging targets with an M4 at 900 meters. Are you kinetic? Conducting a KLE? Short patrol around the local city near the FOB?

Why would I needlessly draw fire when I can spot a fighting position and either tell my .50 gunner to engage or give the arty guys a work out? Maybe the 120mm mortor guys would like to play. Or even better... move the f*uck out and charlie mike the original mission of winning hearts and minds
[/QUOT
Needlessly draw fire? That' funny. You say that as if Marines are always afforded choices, get to make the rules, always have communications and back up of all sorts is always available.
If you need a better reason, read Marine Sniper 93 Confirmed Kills. If the Corps has available technology, to increase the average Marines ability, it's not a bad thing. The ability to adapt, improvise and overcome is obvious.
 

Dench

NES Member
Rating - 100%
99   0   0
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
17,151
Likes
5,624
Yes, I do. It's called artillery. Give me your tactical reasoning behind engaging targets with an M4 at 900 meters. Are you kinetic? Conducting a KLE? Short patrol around the local city near the FOB?

Why would I needlessly draw fire when I can spot a fighting position and either tell my .50 gunner to engage or give the arty guys a work out? Maybe the 120mm mortor guys would like to play. Or even better... move the f*uck out and charlie mike the original mission of winning hearts and minds
wtf is kinetic [rofl]
 

PappyM3

NES Member
Rating - 100%
12   0   0
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
1,537
Likes
992
wtf is kinetic [rofl]
Broad term, often synonymous with lethal(which can include missions where the goal isn’t actually killing someone) e.g. A direct action raid on a compound is kinetic, even if the intent is capture. Whereas, a key leader engagement (KLE) is not kinetic, as it’s just a meeting.

The term kinetic is in joint doctrine when related to fires(missiles, bombs, artillery, electronic warfare etc). In that usage, kinetic and lethal are not always synonymous. Kinetic/non-kinetic is the method, and lethal/non-lethal is the effect. However, in the Army and Marine Corps for maneuver elements(infantry etc), kinetic is just a frequently used term, but not actually doctrinally correct verbiage.
 
Last edited:

jpk

Rating - 100%
3   0   0
Joined
Jan 5, 2013
Messages
18,336
Likes
12,173
I love the 4x ACOGs, but one of their weaknesses is close quarters combat. The 1x setting in the VCOG would be quicker up close than the ACOG, especially since the VCOG has longer eye relief.
Thats where the Comp4/Comp5's from aimpoint really shine.....unlimited eye releif and a decent FOV
 

PappyM3

NES Member
Rating - 100%
12   0   0
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
1,537
Likes
992
Thats where the Comp4/Comp5's from aimpoint really shine.....unlimited eye releif and a decent FOV
Yeah, they are definitely preferred for those with strictly a close quarters mission set, or those special enough to have two different uppers for their M4(or similar). For conventional Infantry, particularly those that operate in a combination of urban and rural areas, there is a need for something that works both up close and far away.
 

Dench

NES Member
Rating - 100%
99   0   0
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
17,151
Likes
5,624
He can’t help you.
Sometimes I think people have to much time to think of new ways to call old stuff.

Another semi related example is calling a helicopter a rotary winged aircraft. It should be required by law to have any person who utters that to be suplexed on the hardest surface found in the immediate area.

Or a rifle a long gun. As opposed to a short gun? Bonus points for SBR's also being called long guns. Because reasons.

The only cure is the suplex.
 
Rating - 100%
3   0   0
Joined
Dec 26, 2010
Messages
1,173
Likes
451
Jfc.. listen im not going to discuss situation dependancy because thats what ya'll are doing. I understand the reasons for magnification and was doing what youre suggesting back in 07' and 09'. Ill just like your post if i agree. Ive been there, done that. Thanks. This isnt Vietnam anymore

You former Marine curmudgeons think youre the best thing since sliced bread. Understand that there are Soldiers out there who are much better shooters. I was an SDM, I dont need you to tell me to read Marine doctrine. I know how to react to a near and far ambush and when to use suppressive fire. We we talking about 5.56 vs 7.62x39 not dshk's.. lol

Now, sorry for the choppy response but im currently in Cozumel and am going to enjoy the rest of my cruise.
 

ReluctantDecoy

NES Member
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Oct 17, 2017
Messages
2,015
Likes
1,713
Location
Cambridge, MA
Sometimes I think people have to much time to think of new ways to call old stuff.

Another semi related example is calling a helicopter a rotary winged aircraft. It should be required by law to have any person who utters that to be suplexed on the hardest surface found in the immediate area.

Or a rifle a long gun. As opposed to a short gun? Bonus points for SBR's also being called long guns. Because reasons.

The only cure is the suplex.
I kind of agree, but the example you picked is kind of iffy. You need that description for the Osprey. It's not fully a helicopter and not fully a plane.
 

Dench

NES Member
Rating - 100%
99   0   0
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
17,151
Likes
5,624
I kind of agree, but the example you picked is kind of iffy. You need that description for the Osprey. It's not fully a helicopter and not fully a plane.
You're right. But I'd say that saying an osprey and a normal helicopter falling into the same category is definitely iffy.
 

PappyM3

NES Member
Rating - 100%
12   0   0
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
1,537
Likes
992
Jfc.. listen im not going to discuss situation dependancy because thats what ya'll are doing. I understand the reasons for magnification and was doing what youre suggesting back in 07' and 09'. Ill just like your post if i agree. Ive been there, done that. Thanks. This isnt Vietnam anymore

You former Marine curmudgeons think youre the best thing since sliced bread. Understand that there are Soldiers out there who are much better shooters. I was an SDM, I dont need you to tell me to read Marine doctrine. I know how to react to a near and far ambush and when to use suppressive fire. We we talking about 5.56 vs 7.62x39 not dshk's.. lol

Now, sorry for the choppy response but im currently in Cozumel and am going to enjoy the rest of my cruise.
Psst, I was Army (also SDM, go us) and not a Marine. I mentioned situation dependency, and provided just a couple examples, because there is so much situation dependency in combat. Having a tool that provides a wider range of capability without much negatives is good. Unfortunately, the USMC picked one heavy-ass optic that does have a lot of negatives, but the magnification range isn’t one of them.

Anyway though, enjoy the cruise. Try to limit corona exposure to cervezas.
 

M60

NES Member
Rating - 100%
56   0   0
Joined
Sep 24, 2010
Messages
5,486
Likes
4,167
Location
Occupied Massachusetts
Jfc.. listen im not going to discuss situation dependancy because thats what ya'll are doing. I understand the reasons for magnification and was doing what youre suggesting back in 07' and 09'. Ill just like your post if i agree. Ive been there, done that. Thanks. This isnt Vietnam anymore

You former Marine curmudgeons think youre the best thing since sliced bread. Understand that there are Soldiers out there who are much better shooters. I was an SDM, I dont need you to tell me to read Marine doctrine. I know how to react to a near and far ambush and when to use suppressive fire. We we talking about 5.56 vs 7.62x39 not dshk's.. lol

Now, sorry for the choppy response but im currently in Cozumel and am going to enjoy the rest of my cruise.
Your in Cozumel on a cruise and your viewing NES! Situation awareness. LOL.
 

M60

NES Member
Rating - 100%
56   0   0
Joined
Sep 24, 2010
Messages
5,486
Likes
4,167
Location
Occupied Massachusetts
Jfc.. listen im not going to discuss situation dependancy because thats what ya'll are doing. I understand the reasons for magnification and was doing what youre suggesting back in 07' and 09'. Ill just like your post if i agree. Ive been there, done that. Thanks. This isnt Vietnam anymore

You former Marine curmudgeons think youre the best thing since sliced bread. Understand that there are Soldiers out there who are much better shooters. I was an SDM, I dont need you to tell me to read Marine doctrine. I know how to react to a near and far ambush and when to use suppressive fire. We we talking about 5.56 vs 7.62x39 not dshk's.. lol

Now, sorry for the choppy response but im currently in Cozumel and am going to enjoy the rest of my cruise.
Lol. Seems like you have a bit of Marine Corps penis envy going on to me.? I've never said anything about the Army. I know to many great soldiers.
 
Rating - 100%
3   0   0
Joined
Dec 26, 2010
Messages
1,173
Likes
451
Ugh stfu
Lol. Seems like you have a bit of Marine Corps penis envy going on to me.? I've never said anything about the Army. I know to many great soldiers.
Nah bruh. My experience with the Marine Corps is that theyre a bunch of wanna be animal mothers led by literal jokers. Cant leave the fob because their still rolling in humvees and forgot to draw MATVs, shooting up local civillans and the Army has to come out to relieve them and pay the locals.. etc etc. Lol im good. Please lock this thread before i lose my mind.
 

M60

NES Member
Rating - 100%
56   0   0
Joined
Sep 24, 2010
Messages
5,486
Likes
4,167
Location
Occupied Massachusetts
Ugh stfu


Nah bruh. My experience with the Marine Corps is that theyre a bunch of wanna be animal mothers led by literal jokers. Cant leave the fob because their still rolling in humvees and forgot to draw MATVs, shooting up local civillans and the Army has to come out to relieve them and pay the locals.. etc etc. Lol im good. Please lock this thread before i lose my mind.
Shooting up locals. Reminds me of the Kent State University shootings. Being, or having been in the Army, you've heard of that shit show haven't you? Talk about being led by literal jokers. Then of course there was Army Lt. Calley and the Melai massacre. With a rich, Army, civilian shooting history like this, I'm surprised to see you throwing stones at Marines, from such a glass house. I'm good too. Now you can lock the thread, if Hustler One is finished with his Corps bashing.
 
Rating - 100%
3   0   0
Joined
Dec 26, 2010
Messages
1,173
Likes
451
Then maybe next time respect my opinion instead of trashing it like i dont know what im talking about? Kbye.
 

cams

NES Member
Rating - 100%
15   0   0
Joined
Sep 7, 2013
Messages
4,322
Likes
12,348
Location
Boston
Ugh stfu


Nah bruh. My experience with the Marine Corps is that theyre a bunch of wanna be animal mothers led by literal jokers. Cant leave the fob because their still rolling in humvees and forgot to draw MATVs, shooting up local civillans and the Army has to come out to relieve them and pay the locals.. etc etc. Lol im good. Please lock this thread before i lose my mind.
Lighten up stud. Two diff wars, two diff services, and your personal experience is equal to about .0001% of the entirety of services experiences working with and around each other. I’m not taking anything away from you by saying that, I respect your service very much, as do I M60’s and all our Veterans here and across the country, it is what it is.

We’ve all seen stupid shit happen on the two way range, by our own and from others. Doesn’t give cause to shit on an entire service that’s made up of 99% great folks trying their best with the shit rolling downhill from career O’s and politicians squeezing every dollar they can out of them to line their pockets instead of actually caring about the Beans and Bullets needed to fight it.

Take a breath and move on brother, whole lot of Vets here, and ain’t one more special or smart than another. We just did our jobs best we could with the shit that was given to us.
 

PappyM3

NES Member
Rating - 100%
12   0   0
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
1,537
Likes
992
Easy guys. Same team.

Marines eat crayons, Soldiers weren’t able to get into any other branch, Navy are all gay, Air Force are just office workers, and we all make fun of the Coast Guard until they start boarding moving submarines like badasses.

We all good?
 
Rating - 100%
3   0   0
Joined
Dec 26, 2010
Messages
1,173
Likes
451
Happy to respect your opinion, next time, after you've learned to respect others.
Youre still talking?

Right. Im the bad guy. Whatever dude. Yes, i take ALL responsibility here. Ill respect others, after, they learn to keep their facehole shut in the first place.

The last word, it's yours.
 

M60

NES Member
Rating - 100%
56   0   0
Joined
Sep 24, 2010
Messages
5,486
Likes
4,167
Location
Occupied Massachusetts
Youre still talking?

Right. Im the bad guy. Whatever dude. Yes, i take ALL responsibility here. Ill respect others, after, they learn to keep their facehole shut in the first place.

The last word, it's yours.
LOL. No bad guys here. Just difference of opinion. Maybe try following your own, "keep your facehole shut, in the first place"advise.
 
Top Bottom