• If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership  The benefits pay for the membership many times over.

Manchin-Toomey deal could allow gun owners, sellers to carry, sell across state lines

Dadstoys said:
Highly doubtful anything that passes is going to be in our favor. Sort of like holding out the apple with one hand and hiding the club behind the back with the other.
The only hope we have is a major house cleaning in 2014 and 2016 that they will remember for decades.
That includes the Rino's as well. Let em feel the pain.
Click to expand...

There might be some amendments in the bill now that look good but last-minute back room dealings will strip them out and leave us with more restrictions. Don't think for a minute that Coumo/Bloomberg/Patrick/Rahm will ever cede control of their fiefdoms.
 
Manchin-Toomey deal could allow gun owners, sellers to carry, sell across state

Sorry bad joke.
I just think its stupid about forcing background checks on private sales.
 
Last edited:
MA_Shooter said:
There might be some amendments in the bill now that look good but last-minute back room dealings will strip them out and leave us with more restrictions. Don't think for a minute that Coumo/Bloomberg/Patrick/Rahm will ever cede control of their fiefdoms.
Click to expand...

It's the Rino's we need to hammer the hardest. The Dem's know we're not going to vote for them anyway. Look at Tisia (Spelling?) He could have had Tierney's seat it he hadn't turned his back on us at the last minute, it was close. I really think Brown might have had a shot if not for the same.
Doesn't hurt to point that out to them.
Myself , I treat enemy combatants better than a f**king turncoat.
 
Last edited:
warwickben said:
Sorry bad joke.
I just think it is stupid to require background checks on private sales.
Click to expand...

From the perspective of the grabbers it is not.

It gives them at a bare minimum, a list of people that have owned guns. I guarantee that list is sorted and ranked by the number and locality of background checks. When they eventually get a bill passed for outright confiscation, the people that have 20 or 30 background checks will get the first visits, but they WILL eventually get to those that only bought one or two.

Because Joe Public can't just call for a background check, you can count on it that ALL transfers will have to be reviewed by an FFL.

That imposes the laws/regs such as Massachusetts has that bar dealers from selling certain handguns to mere citizens.

That imposes an opportunity to tax the sale - you might not bother collecting the sales tax on a one time private sale but the dealer may have to.

It imposes a transfer fee requirement, because why would the dealer do this for free. The typical $25ish dollar fee might become typically $50ish because you HAVE to utiltise a dealer so why wouldn't the charge more?

I'll bet the dealer will also be required to submit a 4473, not just certify they did the background check, which gives them the ability to mine the entire country for dealer OR private sales to build a whole firearms registry.

When data exists it will be used. If anyone here thinks for an instant that ATF is NOT retaining (or piping to other agencies) the data they collect, even the data they are not lawfully allowed to keep, you are frightfully naive.

Disclaimer: Some of these thoughts are recycled from other people's observations and others are my own opinions. None of these, to the best of my knowledge, are based on actual inside knowledge of ATF operations or inside knowledge of the lawbreakers, sorry, I meant to type lawmakers, compiling these (IMO) bullshit laws.
 
Reciprocity would be awesome, but I'm not going to feel good that the pols may decide to 'give' us something that is inalienable.
 
National reciprocity is a deal-killer, IMHO. They know it won't pass, just like the AWB won't pass. What you're seeing is the real legislative process in action: each side puts all sorts of extra garbage in the bill, and when it finally comes up for a vote and gets crushed, the public is mystified, and everyone has a reason for why they voted no.

The background check bill alone *might* pass as is, with lots of finagling, but - and you can call me delusional if you want - I think that every amendment they add will reduce the number of people willing to vote for it. There was an article in the NY Times on Friday basically saying that the entire purpose of the "NRA amendments" was to ensure that a final bill wouldn't pass. Interestingly, they didn't have any concerned about Feinstein's amendments causing problems, even though they will have the same effect.
 
This is nothing more than another step in dissolving state's rights in these matters and tracking everyone through a consolidated, national database wherein they will find a reason to revoke anyone/everyon'se right to keep and bear arms.
 
Manchin-Toomey deal could allow gun owners, sellers to carry, sell across sta...

No! Vote it down, then get a reciprocity bill through after the gun grabbers have suffered the consequences of their actions.


TIME IS ON OUR SIDE!
 
Ya right. And you think NY,NJ,MA,CT and RI are going to honor you carrying into their states. I don't think so!
 
Or, MA follows the letter of the law and doesn't arrest you for the gun but arrests you for illegally possessing the ammo or over ten round magazines.
 
Kahrmine said:
This is nothing more than another step in dissolving state's rights in these matters and tracking everyone through a consolidated, national database wherein they will find a reason to revoke anyone/everyon'se right to keep and bear arms.
Click to expand...

I'm not arguing one way or another, but just remember that the McDonald decision was also a step towards dissolving states' rights.
 
This is NOT good. Here's why.

The gun grabbers appear to currently have a two pronged approach.

1. Gun grabber strategy: Erode state's rights, then the federal government can usher in federal level controls and usurp all state laws and state sovereignty. Take licensing out of the hands of the states and put it at the federal level. This will ultimately lead to registration, then the gun grabber holy grail, confiscation. So, the GUN GRABBERS WANT THIS BILL TO PASS.

2. Gun grabber strategy: Universal background checks. In states like MA, where all transactions are tracked anyway, the danger of this is not as apparent. But what this will do is allow the federal government to initiate a database of all firearms. Once a gun buyer buys a gun, the 4473 is kept at the dealer. Currently, you could buy a gun on a 4473. Let's say you don't like it, so you sell it a week later in a legal face to face transaction with another resident of your home state. You check his driver's license and concealed carry permit to make sure he's legit. At that point, that gun can't be tracked. If you have to do conduct your private transaction at an FFL on a 4473 because the government requires it, the government can now track that gun forever. They will know if you have it from the original purchase, or if you sold it, and who you sold it to. From the second universal background checks are required, the government will know everything you have. If you say you sold it, you will have to prove it with the 4473. This will lead to registration, and ultimately confiscation.

Their strategies appear to be focused on these two approaches: Registration and erosion of state's rights.
 
Last edited:
There's some pretty naive statements here. Bash me, if you must, just know you'll be bashing fact, not the fiction you support.

Background checks are called NICS checks, because they're done through the NICS system. NICS= National Instant Criminal Background Check System

It's NOT operated by the BATFE, never has, never will. It's operated by the FBI.

The Clinton administration (IIRC, it was them) got in a big bunch of legal trouble for keeping NICS records. By LAW, they can keep them 3 days, no longer.

The way an FFL tracks them is on the 4473 form, so, yup, you WILL fill one out. They are kept at the FFL's location. BATFE can NOT legally remove them. They can bring in a copier and copy them (and have before). That means they can scan them too. But, removal is a serious felony.

Ever make a NICS check? Unless you're an FFL or his employee, you haven't. Well, I have, having been BOTH.

All the information on the firearm given to NICS is it's either a handgun or long arm (rifle or shotgun, unsepecified). The reason the information is there, is FFL's MUST follow Federal law. 18 for long arm, 21 for pistol. Guess what will now, by default, apply. Yup, national age restriction. Unless it's a NICS exempt transfer.

The ONLY place the serial number, model, caliber and brand gets recorded is on the 4473.

So, if you're making comments, get your damn facts in order first.

A simple Google search for just nics would show the FBI still runs it.
 
Nickle said:
...
The Clinton administration (IIRC, it was them) got in a big bunch of legal trouble for keeping NICS records. By LAW, they can keep them 3 days, no longer.
...
Click to expand...

If data exists it will be used. Eventually it will be abused. It is absurdly naive to believe otherwise.

Whether a corrupt administration simply ignores the law or an oppressive changes the law, this is the foundation the next generation of abusive gun control laws will be laid on. Count on it.

Or ignore it.

Sent from my chimney using smoke signals.
 
Great, a similar bill to be introduced into the house by 'moderate' republican King -

Reps. Peter King and Mike Thompson are planning to introduce a House version of the compromise on background checks for gun buyers on Monday or Tuesday, King told POLITICO exclusively on Friday.

“I will be introducing, along with Mike Thompson [D-Calif.], basically the House version of the Manchin-Toomey bill on Monday or Tuesday at the latest,” the New York Republican said, referencing the bipartisan agreement on background checks reached this week between Sens. Joe Manchin (D-W.Va.) and Pat Toomey (R-Pa.).

Peter King: House gun bill ready Monday - Katie Glueck - POLITICO.com
 
namedpipes said:
If data exists it will be used. Eventually it will be abused. It is absurdly naive to believe otherwise.
Click to expand...

Yep. All the guns sold via an FFL has the gun, the serial and the location the owner lived at time of sale. Pretty useful for a confiscation.
 
Dench said:
Yep. All the guns sold via an FFL has the gun, the serial and the location the owner lived at time of sale. Pretty useful for a confiscation.
Click to expand...

On the 4473, yes. On the NICS check, no. Data, that is.

The 4473 can NOT leave the dealership. So, though a criminal government CAN get the info, it's a major pain to go through. That's one deterrent. The fact that keeping NICS info is illegal is another, Now, there's zero doubt in my mind the Obama administration IS keeping it. As in, I'm pretty sure they are. Only reason I'm not totally sure is I haven't seen evidence they are yet. But, it's likely there somewhere. There's going to be a serious price paid if they get caught. Not with the legal system (though that will be bad enough), but with voter disgust.

Frankly, I'm hoping the left pulls a few really stupid stunts. That might wake up enough sleeping morons to see their beloved angels are really nothing more than a bunch of Marxist thugs.
 
Nickle said:
On the 4473, yes. On the NICS check, no. Data, that is.

The 4473 can NOT leave the dealership. So, though a criminal government CAN get the info, it's a major pain to go through. That's one deterrent. The fact that keeping NICS info is illegal is another, Now, there's zero doubt in my mind the Obama administration IS keeping it. As in, I'm pretty sure they are. Only reason I'm not totally sure is I haven't seen evidence they are yet. But, it's likely there somewhere. There's going to be a serious price paid if they get caught. Not with the legal system (though that will be bad enough), but with voter disgust.

Frankly, I'm hoping the left pulls a few really stupid stunts. That might wake up enough sleeping morons to see their beloved angels are really nothing more than a bunch of Marxist thugs.
Click to expand...

if it comes down to a confiscation, you and I both know legal or not the 4473's are going to be key in that.

I just hope I never see the day.
 

Similar threads

State Dems accused of pushing ‘backdoor gun tax’ on lawful firearm owners
Replies
13
Views
563
SS1
SS1
State Sen. Pushes Campus Carry for AZ College Students with Concealed Carry Permits
Replies
0
Views
46
Reptile
Reptile
Local Dealers who Sell on Consignment Through GunBroker?
2
Replies
49
Views
1K
alan226
alan226
Nebraska lawmakers pass bill that would allow smaller school districts to arm staff members
Replies
0
Views
41
Reptile
Reptile
These Are The Worst States To Be A Gun Owner In 2024
Replies
6
Views
330
Dennis in MA
Dennis in MA
Back
Top Bottom