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Magazine-Fed Shotguns

TheRoland

TheRoland

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Why are there no magazine fed shotguns other than the Saiga 12? Wouldn't, for example, a magazine-fed Super 90 be the greatest shotgun on the planet?

Is there something inherent to shotgun shells that makes them feed poorly, or has modern technology just been slow to catch up to scatter guns?
 
But the AA-12 is select-fire. And similar rotary shotguns tend to be terrible or AWBed or both. There doesn't seem to be any selection of consumer magazine-fed shotguns at all...
 
Maybe it's because the tube fed designs have been working well for so long? I would also guess there are issues with the magazine. The size of the rounds (especially 12 gage) make it less desirable a design, as you'd have a large, bulky magazine sticking out the bottom of the gun instead of the relatively slim (factory) tube style mag (of 5 to 8 round capacity) that follows the contour of the barrel. Large bulky mag = more unwieldy.

* Please note, my shotgun experience is limited to tube fed Mossys, so take my input for what it's worth. [wink]
 
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meth0d said:
The size of the rounds (especially 12 gage) make it less desirable a design, as you'd have a large, bulky magazine sticking out the bottom of the gun
Click to expand...

Ooh, I think you may have nailed it. That makes a lot of sense.
 
meth0d said:
Maybe it's because the tube fed designs have been working well for so long? I would also guess there are issues with the magazine. The size of the rounds (especially 12 gage) make it less desirable a design, as you'd have a large, bulky magazine sticking out the bottom of the gun instead of the relatively slim tube style mag that follows the contour of the barrel. Large bulky mag = more unwieldy.

* Please note, my shotgun experience is limited to tube fed Mossys, so take my input for what it's worth. [wink]
Click to expand...

Not really, the saiga and the SPAS 15 (i think only one person runs the SPAS) both run great and are going to dominate the 3gun world. The weight is balanced in the center of the gun instead of out at the barrel.

 
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The size of those magazines seems to prove the theory, to me. Great for competition, but I'd imagine somewhat unwieldy outside of it.
 
Supermoto said:
Not really, the saiga and the SPAS 15 (i think only one person runs the SPAS) both run great and are going to dominate the 3gun world. The weight is balanced in the center of the gun instead of out at the barrel.

Click to expand...


Ahh, well there you go! haha. That's why I was sure to include a disclaimer in my post.
 
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TheRoland said:
The size of those magazines seems to prove the theory, to me. Great for competition, but I'd imagine somewhat unwieldy outside of it.
Click to expand...

You are carrying more rounds with the mag. Have you seen what a tube gun looks like with that many rounds? its like running with a 2x4 on your shoulder
 
Supermoto said:
You are carrying more rounds with the mag. Have you seen what a tube gun looks like with that many rounds? its like running with a 2x4 on your shoulder
Click to expand...

Actually, I just googled the 10 round magazine, and it looked only slightly larger than a 30-round AR mag. So... what's the deal? Why is this not a huge market segment?
 
Well the 3-round max is for waterfowl, per federal law.
For upland bird hunting, it's generally unlikely that you'll get more than two shots.
In clay target sports you generally need no more than 2 shots

So...what's left? Home defense, combat, and "action shotgun" sports

IIRC Jeff Cooper was of the opinion that if you couldn't get rid of your enemies with six shots, you either couldn't shoot well, or you had too many enemies. Ergo, a huge mag is not "required" for home defense.

For combat, a shotgun has less overall utility than a full-auto AR ( though, granted, it does has its uses)

All that's left is action sports.

Now, out of all the shotguns sold, how many are going to be used for action sports? A small percentage. It's all market dynamics. As a practiclal matter, a 10-round mag-fed shotgun has limited market appeal, so there's no great incentive to build them.

We'll save the baby-killing for EBR shooters! [shocked][laugh]
 
MisterHappy said:
Well the 3-round max is for waterfowl, per federal law.
For upland bird hunting, it's generally unlikely that you'll get more than two shots.
In clay target sports you generally need no more than 2 shots

So...what's left? Home defense, combat, and "action shotgun" sports
Click to expand...

You missed one...

for the sheer FUN of it!

Doing a mag dump from a SAIGA 12 is it's own reward.
 
MisterHappy said:
Well the 3-round max is for waterfowl, per federal law.
For upland bird hunting, it's generally unlikely that you'll get more than two shots.
In clay target sports you generally need no more than 2 shots

So...what's left? Home defense, combat, and "action shotgun" sports

IIRC Jeff Cooper was of the opinion that if you couldn't get rid of your enemies with six shots, you either couldn't shoot well, or you had too many enemies. Ergo, a huge mag is not "required" for home defense.

For combat, a shotgun has less overall utility than a full-auto AR ( though, granted, it does has its uses)

All that's left is action sports.

Now, out of all the shotguns sold, how many are going to be used for action sports? A small percentage. It's all market dynamics. As a practiclal matter, a 10-round mag-fed shotgun has limited market appeal, so there's no great incentive to build them.

We'll save the baby-killing for EBR shooters! [shocked][laugh]
Click to expand...



This.


Sums up everything I was just thinking. No public market, and what combat scenario can ONLY be filled by a mag-fed shotgun, instead of a short barreled rifle (with more rounds in the mag), or a sidearm (lighter and easier to maneuver)?

Respectfully, am I missing something?
 
I've always though that a 12 gauge pump with magazine would make a great home defense setup. Think about two mags paired, one mag loaded with less-lethal rounds and the second mag with 00 buck. That way you can engage an intruder with a behavior modification round or two, then escalate applied force accordingly by simply swapping the mags.

I would anticipate that at least one response would be to load your bedside pump so the first round chambered is a less-lethal round, with follow-up rounds being 00. However, with the detachable mags, that would then require a deliberate effort, and choice, to deploy a fully lethal round.
 
MadHatterPDC said:
I've always though that a 12 gauge pump with magazine would make a great home defense setup. Think about two mags paired, one mag loaded with less-lethal rounds and the second mag with 00 buck. That way you can engage an intruder with a behavior modification round or two, then escalate applied force accordingly by simply swapping the mags.

I would anticipate that at least one response would be to load your bedside pump so the first round chambered is a less-lethal round, with follow-up rounds being 00. However, with the detachable mags, that would then require a deliberate effort, and choice, to deploy a fully lethal round.
Click to expand...

Don't use less-lethal ammo for HD. Using a beanbag round is still lethal force, and you still need to meet the criteria of the lethal force continuum to use them. The only way to deal with a home invader is with immediate lethal force. Anything less is for second-thinkers that are likely to get themselves or their family hurt.
 
The problem is the dumb ATF sporting purposes clause. Nobody wants to make a magazine fed shotgun only to have it turned into an NFA DD by the ATF when they get a hair up their ass about its capacity. This is what happened with the USAS 12, Stryker 12, etc... they got sold here with a drum on it that was more than 10 rounds. Nobody is going to make a new semiautomatic shotgun and only limit themselves to 10 rounds per mag.

-Mike
 
MadHatterPDC said:
I've always though that a 12 gauge pump with magazine would make a great home defense setup. Think about two mags paired, one mag loaded with less-lethal rounds and the second mag with 00 buck. That way you can engage an intruder with a behavior modification round or two, then escalate applied force accordingly by simply swapping the mags.

I would anticipate that at least one response would be to load your bedside pump so the first round chambered is a less-lethal round, with follow-up rounds being 00. However, with the detachable mags, that would then require a deliberate effort, and choice, to deploy a fully lethal round.
Click to expand...

Never. I'd never load an HD shotgun with LTL ammo. You don't "get" anything by using it as the law still considers it deadly force whenever you aim a firearm at someone. There is no force escalation for non LEOs... you were either justified in bringing a shotgun to bear against a bad guy, or you're not.

On the other hand, Nearly anything you could justify using a beanbag round for, you would have the luxury of being able to call the cops and wait for them to arrive and do it for you.

-Mike
 
Supermoto said:
Not really, the saiga and the SPAS 15 (i think only one person runs the SPAS) both run great and are going to dominate the 3gun world. The weight is balanced in the center of the gun instead of out at the barrel.
Click to expand...

1) The single largest market for shotguns are clay target shooters. The second are bird shooters/hunters.

2) Both those markets demand guns that swing fluidly and efficiently, something the traditional tube magazine gun does extremely well and the detachable box magazine gun does not.

3) Due to #2, DBM fed shotguns will be forever a niche market at the fringe. The number of tacticool users is insignificant compared to the number of fudds.

Here endedth the marketing lesson.
 
 

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