Mace... who carrys it, what restrictions in MA?

MidKnight

MidKnight

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I'm going to start the process of trying to upgrade my LTC-A (s&t) to ALP. I called the PD today and spoke to the Chiefs assistant because the chief wasn't around. He told me the best thing I can do is write a letter to the chief.

Thing is, he also proceeded to try to convince me not to carry! Told me I should carry mace instead. He told me there would be legal ramifications if I shot somebody. Told me that in 22 years of service he'd never carried off duty (except when needed, whatever that meant).

I will try to upgrade my LTC which won't be easy I'd imagine, but his speach did get me thinking about mace in MA. What are the restrictions if any (besides fid card), who here carries it, and where can you buy it?

Sorry if it's been covered, i searched for "mace" and only turned up threads on licenses.

Thanks in advance!
 
admittedly offtopic!

...told me that in 22 years of service he'd never carried off duty (except when needed...)
Click to expand...

That exception is pretty d**m big, don't you think? It's good that he's old enough/wise enough to make such decisions. Citizens, on the other hand, obviously can't be trusted to determine "need"....

Terrible logic like that is what made me distrust the anti-gun lobby to begin with. (It's a slippery slope. First you distrust them, then you start wondering if the other side has anything smart to say, then you find yourself agreeing with the pro-gun types, then you're leafing through the S&W catalogue...)

ok, back to the subject at hand. I have only seen mace sold in gun stores.
 
Jeremiah said:
admittedly offtopic!

...told me that in 22 years of service he'd never carried off duty (except when needed...)
Click to expand...

That exception is pretty d**m big, don't you think? It's good that he's old enough/wise enough to make such decisions. Citizens, on the other hand, obviously can't be trusted to determine "need"....
Click to expand...

I like LenS' comment about "need" a few weeks back. When his wife asked him if he expected to need his gun that night (they were going out), he said that if he expected to need it, he wouldn't be going!
 
some cops arent anti's, they're just uneducated, or fearless.

I guess he never had someone he arrested the night before start trouble with him and his kids at the mall before...


ANYWAYS.
Any firearms licence, FID, Class-b, class-a, whatever, allows you to legaly carry self-defence chemical spray.

Personaly, I cary First Defense in MK6 size http://www.red-diamond-unif.com/first_defense_oc.htm
Thats what my local PD carries, decent size, and I like the clip. I usually clip it inside my strong-side pocket, like most people carry a folding knife.

For the most powerful stuff, check Fox Labs stuff http://www.foxlabs.com/FoxLabs.html . I just dont like that they dont have the MK6 style, everything is big and bulky.
 
Your restricted A should entitle you to carry a chemical spray, however I can see that some departments would make a big deal out of it. If there is any question at all, get a restricted Class D which allows you to carry Mace/Pepper Spray whatever. They only cost $25.00 not $100.00...now some people might say it is redundant to do that if you already have an "A" restricted (which still should entitle you to carry Mace)...but you might be avoiding a hassle in the long run...it doesn't sound like the brightest bulbs on the Christmas Tree are woking at your local police department. (I gotta tell you I have a real hate/love relationship with cops, I work with 'em everyday...and believe me many of 'em are like deer in the headlights when it comes to weaponcraft and personal security) It sounds like the one you talked with has led a charmed life.

Anyway, good luck and best wishes,

Mark
 
There is no point in getting a Restricted/Mace FID card if you already have an LTC.

To the extent an FID as well is useful - and I had BOTH from 1979 through to 2003 - it is to have a FULL FID as back-up for the LTC. Now that an FID is $100 and not $2 and good for only 6 years instead of life, as well as the restoration of the 90-day grace period (Thanks, GOAL!), I don't think it is worth the money to have both.
 
"There is no point in getting a Restricted/Mace FID card if you already have an LTC." S

Somehow I thought that would be your reaction...but I live in the real world, and I like to win battles and not tilt windmills. Sometimes, the path of least resistance get's you to where you want to go. Now maybe there will be no problem, but if there is, getting the D FID for twenty-five bucks eliminates hassles, then I am all for eliminating hassles. Our friend should see how things pan out before deciding to obtain an FID of any class. In principle I fully agree with your position.

Save your energy for the battles that count ! :D

Respectfully,

Mark
 
Scrivener (bartleby?) did you get my PM?

Thanks everyone for all the replies, and the websites were useful for checking out options! This place is as informative as anyone could want!!!
 
Scrivener said:
There is no point in getting a Restricted/Mace FID card if you already have an LTC.

To the extent an FID as well is useful - and I had BOTH from 1979 through to 2003 - it is to have a FULL FID as back-up for the LTC. Now that an FID is $100 and not $2 and good for only 6 years instead of life, as well as the restoration of the 90-day grace period (Thanks, GOAL!), I don't think it is worth the money to have both.
Click to expand...

More importantly, the "Old FID" covered everything an LTC did if you kept it in your residence and did not carry/transport it. The new FID covers only low capacity rifles and shotguns. It's a far better investment to spend the $100 for the spousal unit to get an LTC to provide redundant coverage of the stuff in the house.
 
You can not have more than one firearms license, and you must surrender one to apply for another.
Class A in every shape and form covers chemical spray defence.

Fire extinguisher spray is good only for the "cool" factor, unless you're wearing a full haz-mat suit. Its a fog type spray. Not so good.


Which remids me, you want the stream, more precise, less chance of spray-back. Also, avoid the foams. They take too long to work, and can be removed / thrown by the nitwit.

And, so "they" say, a very small burst to the face is all that is required.... and is all that should be used.... The carrier agent must evaporate for the spray to really work its best, so dousing your perp will lead to longer time of symptoms, where a small burts will allow the carrier to dry faster and the active chemical to go to work
 
Republic of Mass said:
Which remids me, you want the stream, more precise, less chance of spray-back. Also, avoid the foams. They take too long to work, and can be removed / thrown by the nitwit.
Click to expand...

I'm friends with one of the captains at the local ME state prison up here.
he actually carries the fog when working, because he says that prisoners who have been sprayed before can get their hands or arms up and block most / all of the spray from a stream, but the fog will always get around their blocking moves.

He also said that if you spray, if you can, aim for right into their nose.
He has taken down 300+ pound brutes with one quick spray in the nose, where as if you hit in the face and they manage to close their eyes and mouth you'll also have limited success, and need more spray.

Dave
 
dwarven1 said:
Republic of Mass said:
http://www.red-diamond-unif.com/first_defense_oc.htm
Click to expand...

WOW!

I've never seen fire-extinguisher-sized pepper spray dispensers before...
Click to expand...

That's made specifically for travel in Brockton!

[roll] [twisted]
 
Rob Boudrie said:
Republic of Mass said:
You can not have more than one firearms license, and you must surrender one to apply for another.
Click to expand...
Please cite the relevant MGL or CMR.
Click to expand...

Rob, as you know this is NOT true between FID and LTC, however some PDs demand that you surrender the other license first (even one town demanded turning in the LTC-B when the person applied for an LTC-A).

According to Ron Glidden, the CHSB computer system will cancel one LTC upon issuance of a second LTC (even if you still possess it, it won't be valid). But one can have one LTC and one FID in their system.

I wouldn't waste the money, but each to their own.
 
I have never owned or carried any chemical spray. Largely this was based on a discussion I had with my late Chief. He had seen it used and it was ineffective against guys on drugs . . . which much of the criminal element is when they commit crimes (it boosts their "bravery").

As a Constable I'm re-thinking it and will eventually try to get re-certified by MPTC and then buy some to carry when working. As Michael DeBethencourt stated, it is better to have a continuum of force rather than only a gun! This plays better with DAs and juries. . . that was his position and I think that he is right.
 
BTW, Mace/OC/any chemical sprays are considered "ammunition" in MGLs. Thus, you can't have them on any school/college property. Any place that has security at the door is likely to go apoplectic if they see the stuff too.
 
"You can not have more than one firearms license, and you must surrender one to apply for another."

Utter nonsense.

I defy anyone - including towns propagating that falsehood (as Walpole used to and may still) to cite a statute, regulation or case law so holding. Note that Ron Glidden directly addresses and refutes this drivel in his book. He questions the LOGIC of holding both an LTC and FID, but never the fact that BOTH can be held simultaneously.[/b]
 
I work for what has to be the most gun-friendly town in mass. Our CHSB operator was instructed, and we practice, that FID / licenses must be confiscated durring the re-application process, because denial of their upgrade would not allow them to have a license at all, as the denial statutes are the same from FID to LTC... If you cant have an LTC, you cant have your FID back, as you're no longer qualified under MGL....
 
Republic of Mass said:
I work for what has to be the most gun-friendly town in mass. Our CHSB operator was instructed, and we practice, that FID / licenses must be confiscated durring the re-application process, because denial of their upgrade would not allow them to have a license at all, as the denial statutes are the same from FID to LTC... If you cant have an LTC, you cant have your FID back, as you're no longer qualified under MGL....
Click to expand...

Sorry this is HARDLY THE ACTIONS OF A FRIENDLY TOWN! With "friends" like this nobody needs enemies.

MGL states that if you do not have possession of a LTC/FID then you can NOT legally have possession of any guns/ammo/mags/components, period. NO exceptions.

You confiscate a legal permit while the person is waiting 1-3 months for a new one and that person is in illegal possession and could be charged (a good lawyer could make mincemeat of your chief and the town, but the law is the law)!

Any day of the week someone could come back as disqualified and you deal with it when/if the time comes. NOT in advance, "just in case"!

I guess that your town has superseded that ancient document known as the US Constitution . . . I'm sure that they know better than a bunch of dead white men who wrote that document! [roll]

14th. Amendment
to the U.S. Constitution

"Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

How many renewals/upgrades (post 1998) has your PD done when they suddenly discover that the person is no longer legally qualified to own guns? I'll bet NONE is the correct answer here. [NOTE: The computerized court system now notifies the CHSB daily on all court cases, if there is a "hit" on a permit holder, the issuing PD is notified via Email immediately and they suspend/revoke as appropriate. So there are no "surprises" upon renewal/upgrade if the PD is doing their job during the year.]

Although gun/ammo possession would violate Fed Law, someone can be legally disqualified from a LTC and still be legally QUALIFIED to receive an FID card! Better check the laws again. . . some offenses have a 5 year wait for an FID (but forever banned from LTC) in the statutes. And since the law does NOT allow a chief to use "suitability" for FIDs, you can NOT legally deny them. . . but I'll bet your PD does deny them anyway . . . especially if they have the attitude that you portrayed in this thread.

[Sorry if I am sounding like Scrivener here, but damn this one really set me off!]
 
MidKnight:

If you have any of the various flavors of license, you are good to go for carrying chemical sprays in Mass.

As trained/certified OC/Chemical Spray Instructor, I can tell you:

- It's good to have, but it's not always going to work. Someone who is on drugs or just determined to fight through it is going to continue to be a threat.

- There are a variety of makes and types of spray. Go with either the fog or stream type, and get a dispenser that has the "safety" flip top to avoid any accidental spraying.

- Get some training! Just like any other defensive tool, you don't just walk in the store, buy it, and expect to know how to properly use it when crunch time comes. GOAL has an excellent class, and there are others as well.

- If you carry a gun, you should always have two other defensive tools with you - OC/pepper spray and a tactical flashlight. Remember, you are required to use the appropriate and reasonable amount of force to extract yourself from a bad situation. The gun is the last resort, so you need to have some "other resorts."

Good luck!
 
More Mass misinformation

Our resident licensing expert FIRST declared:

“You can not have more than one firearms license, and you must surrender one to apply for another.”

No statutory basis for this astounding assertion has yet been provided. Instead, we are presented with yet another unsubstantiated claim:

“Our CHSB operator was instructed, and we practice, that FID / licenses must be confiscated durring the re-application process, because denial of their upgrade would not allow them to have a license at all, as the denial statutes are the same from FID to LTC...”

Both assertions are utterly false. FIDs are SHALL ISSUE, while LTCs are discretionary. Further, crimes that are complete disqualifiers for an LTC have a “burn-off” period of five years for FID cards. This means there is a gaping chasm between the two and renders the second assertion about the licenses as false as the first.

The admitted confiscation of a valid license merely upon application for a new one tells me all I need to know about the abusive policies of this person’s department and his competence to tell us what licensing law is.
 
Pepper Spray is usually much more effective than Mace, and wiht ANYTHING, get some training. Riverside, AWARE, and GOAL have certified defensive spray instructors.

One thing I like about Fox Labs is that you can get an 'inert' canister the same size as the 'real' one for practice.

And Ross, if you liked the Fire extinguisher, you'll love this one:

megatank.jpg


This is a large shoulder sling unit (approx. 2 ft. long) containing 2.5 kg (5.5 lb.) of chemical solution. Ten meter range is effective for riot control, perimeter defense, area denial, hostage rescue, prisoner deterrent, hostage control and other situations where high power and long range are required. Pressure guage shows contents and it can be refilled-even in the field- within ten minutes. Every metropolitan department should have at least one of these units!
Click to expand...

And no, it isn't IDPA legal. (^_^)
 
General Discussion: Mace . . .Who carries it, . . .

I've carried Fox OC since receiving my license (Class A) over a year ago. If you Google "mace," "OC," "Fox labs," or anything similar, you'll likely find a source.

I don't yet own a firearm; however, when the time comes that I do own and carry one, that won't preclude me from also carrying OC. In most cases, I could see that the OC would be my first choice of weaponry if exposed to an attack. And certainly, I'd rather explain to the authorities why I sprayed someone with a non-lethal chemical than why I put a big hole in the goon!

BTW, OC has a shelf-life of two years, I'm told. And my source may have it on his shelf up to 45 days of that two years. So, though I've found no expiration date on any of the two-ouncers I carry, I replace any that I've had more than eighteen months.
 
Republic of Mass said:
some cops arent anti's, they're just uneducated, or fearless.

I guess he never had someone he arrested the night before start trouble with him and his kids at the mall before...


ANYWAYS.
Any firearms licence, FID, Class-b, class-a, whatever, allows you to legaly carry self-defence chemical spray.

Personaly, I cary First Defense in MK6 size http://www.red-diamond-unif.com/first_defense_oc.htm
Thats what my local PD carries, decent size, and I like the clip. I usually clip it inside my strong-side pocket, like most people carry a folding knife.

For the most powerful stuff, check Fox Labs stuff http://www.foxlabs.com/FoxLabs.html . I just dont like that they dont have the MK6 style, everything is big and bulky.
Click to expand...
First Defense MK6, like you said the clip is a strong selling point, its one of the only ones of it type on that entire site.
got that and a dozen decontamination wipes to put in the coat pocket. ;)
as its been stated before i also think its critical that you have some non-lethal defensive methods at your disposal to try to defuse a potentially deadly situation or to just buy time to run and not let the situation reach that pitch.
 
SnakeEye said:
First Defense MK6, like you said the clip is a strong selling point, its one of the only ones of it type on that entire site.
got that and a dozen decontamination wipes to put in the coat pocket.
Click to expand...

What sort of range does the MK6 get? I've tried Fox's smallest unit (a little over half the size of the MK6) and the range was miserable compared to their 2 ounce unit.
 

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