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MA SP in trouble (again) - this time guns at Logan

Boston4567 said:
There's a few separate issues here. First off, the TSA is not a law enforcement agency. They don't even have the right to act on the laws you're citing. No one at the TSA has arrest powers or the power to criminally charge anyone. So generally speaking, you're not going to get federally charged for attempting to bring something onto an airplane that they don't want you to, unless there are other factors at play (e.g., suspected terrorism).

Second, regardless of laws, the TSA can and will physically stop you from bringing anything on a plane they're able to detect that they don't want you to. This isn't something that gets adjudicated in a courtroom according to strict rules; they have the administrative flexibility to say "you're not taking that on the plane" regardless of laws and regulations. So no one's ever taking an antique firearm onto a plane in their carry-on based on some technicality or loophole in the rules. And they might give you a civil ticket in the same way the meter maid gives you a parking ticket, although it's not clear how often they actually bother doing that in ordinary cases.

Finally, what the TSA does if they catch someone with something illegal is hand them off to local law enforcement to be charged at the state level with whatever crimes are applicable. In this case the staties charged first and asked questions later, 'cuz guns. If this guy had been treated according to the law, they would have confiscated the gun (or just made him check the bag) and sent him on his way with no charges. Same as if he had a pocket knife in his bag.


They start at 75k or so, if I recall correctly. They just work a lot of OT and details, which jacks up total pay. Regardless, if pay is the issue then you have a case for lowering the pay, not for eliminating the force. There are, after all, issues of statewide concern that you need law enforcement for.
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No I know a guy who just started at 125ish, but what statewide concerns are there?
 
jkelly1229 said:
No I know a guy who just started at 125ish, but what statewide concerns are there?
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No you don't. A new state trooper's base pay is about 65k. See here, bargaining unit 5A: Salary and Compensation

The state police operate specialized units that enforce commercial vehicle laws, reconstruct accidents in the event of fatalities, investigate statewide crimes like gangs, drugs, human trafficking, etc, assist with patrolling towns that are too small to have a large force, investigate arsons for the state fire marshal, have a bomb squad, apprehend fugitives, protect the governor, operate ballistics labs and drug labs, investigate computer crimes, etc. Plus they're the murder police everywhere except Springfield and Boston, show up to help at major events where there may be riots, and patrol Devens and Logan Airport.

So yeah, we can get rid of the state police, but someone has to do all that stuff, and do you really think it would be more efficient and effective if all these functions were decentralized, even if we figured out who to distribute them to?

And for the reasons Mike said, it doesn't make any sense (nor would it be desirable) to have municipal PDs patrol the highways. They do that in other states, and the result is atrocious, revenue-motivated speed traps all over the place, and a lack of consistency in enforcement. At least with the MSP I know I'm not getting pulled over if I'm paying attention to my surroundings and keeping it under 75. And I know exactly what an MSP cruiser looks like.
 
Boston4567 said:
There's a few separate issues here. First off, the TSA is not a law enforcement agency. They don't even have the right to act on the laws you're citing. No one at the TSA has arrest powers or the power to criminally charge anyone. So generally speaking, you're not going to get federally charged for attempting to bring something onto an airplane that they don't want you to, unless there are other factors at play (e.g., suspected terrorism).

Second, regardless of laws, the TSA can and will physically stop you from bringing anything on a plane they're able to detect that they don't want you to. This isn't something that gets adjudicated in a courtroom according to strict rules; they have the administrative flexibility to say "you're not taking that on the plane" regardless of laws and regulations. So no one's ever taking an antique firearm onto a plane in their carry-on based on some technicality or loophole in the rules. And they might give you a civil ticket in the same way the meter maid gives you a parking ticket, although it's not clear how often they actually bother doing that in ordinary cases.

Finally, what the TSA does if they catch someone with something illegal is hand them off to local law enforcement to be charged at the state level with whatever crimes are applicable. In this case the staties charged first and asked questions later, 'cuz guns. If this guy had been treated according to the law, they would have confiscated the gun (or just made him check the bag) and sent him on his way with no charges. Same as if he had a pocket knife in his bag.


They start at 75k or so, if I recall correctly. They just work a lot of OT and details, which jacks up total pay. Regardless, if pay is the issue then you have a case for lowering the pay, not for eliminating the force. There are, after all, issues of statewide concern that you need law enforcement for.
Click to expand...
Not exactly. Most TSA employees are like you describe. However, TSA does have special agents that are armed and can arrest just like any other federal LE.
 
Boston4567 said:
And for the reasons Mike said, it doesn't make any sense (nor would it be desirable) to have municipal PDs patrol the highways. They do that in other states, and the result is atrocious, revenue-motivated speed traps all over the place, and a lack of consistency in enforcement. At least with the MSP I know I'm not getting pulled over if I'm paying attention to my surroundings and keeping it under 75. And I know exactly what an MSP cruiser looks like.
Click to expand...
When I worked for the PD, my chief told us to keep off the highways and leave it to MSP. Nowadays the same PD is regularly patrolling the highway, but only responding to calls on the Interstate.
 
State PD is necessary but like most government agencies MSP is bloated and exists to generate revenue now.

I’ve never understood why we can’t hand a majority of the duties to county sheriffs that are elected and give their deputies policing powers. That way if they piss off the public we can elect someone else. That seems to be what a majority of the rest of the country does.
 
Junior314 said:
State PD is necessary but like most government agencies MSP is bloated and exists to generate revenue now.

I’ve never understood why we can’t hand a majority of the duties to county sheriffs that are elected and give their deputies policing powers. That way if they piss off the public we can elect someone else. That seems to be what a majority of the rest of the country does.
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The county government in MA was horridly corrupt, which is why it has basically been disbanded. I absolutely positively do not want to encounter a MA deputy on the side of the road — these are guys that couldn’t get hired by MSP or a town PD.
 
M1911 said:
The county government in MA was horridly corrupt, which is why it has basically been disbanded. I absolutely positively do not want to encounter a MA deputy on the side of the road — these are guys that couldn’t get hired by MSP or a town PD.
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Not like the MSP doesn’t have a new scandal dropping every month. Point taken though.
 
Junior314 said:
Not like the MSP doesn’t have a new scandal dropping every month. Point taken though.
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Yes, the MSP does have a scandal dropping every month. But the thing is that the sheriffs’ deputies are of even lower quality as law enforcement personnel than MSP troopers. They would be even worse.
 
None of the articles ever mention how Massport already has its own police department, but they play the role of security guards due to legislation that gives MSP jurisdiction over the airport. Massport could easily police itself just like most major airports across the country.
 
Most airports that I’ve been to have been policed by the local department, not by special airport police. For example, O’Hare is patrolled by Chicago PD.

I don’t really have a problem with the state police patrolling Logan. I do have a problem with the staties patrolling the Seaport District. That is just stupid.
 
asquared said:
None of the articles ever mention how Massport already has its own police department, but they play the role of security guards due to legislation that gives MSP jurisdiction over the airport. Massport could easily police itself just like most major airports across the country.
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Massport PD is a highly political agency, with jobs doled out based on how many politicians you know rather than merit. I'll take the State Police any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
 
Junior314 said:
I’ve never understood why we can’t hand a majority of the duties to county sheriffs that are elected and give their deputies policing powers. That way if they piss off the public we can elect someone else. That seems to be what a majority of the rest of the country does.
Click to expand...

The three southern New England states largely got rid of elected law enforcement because the jobs were used as nepotism gravy trains. RI is the best example.

Charles R. Brayton - Wikipedia

Think about it this way. Both DAs and sheriffs in Mass do not get booted often by the electorate. The majority of Mass/CT/RI voters just vote for the D. Do you honestly expect serious conservative or libertarian change in southern New England elections? Because what you'll get is machine politics followed by a progressive who promises "change", but with change turning out to mean "I am going to make my own machine." Like the new Suffolk DA.

The vast majority of people wouldn't be able to name their police chief, never mind an elected sheriff.
 
C. Stockwell said:
The three southern New England states largely got rid of elected law enforcement because the jobs were used as nepotism gravy trains. RI is the best example.

Charles R. Brayton - Wikipedia

Think about it this way. Both DAs and sheriffs in Mass do not get booted often by the electorate. The majority of Mass/CT/RI voters just vote for the D. Do you honestly expect serious conservative or libertarian change in southern New England elections? Because what you'll get is machine politics followed by a progressive who promises "change", but with change turning out to mean "I am going to make my own machine." Like the new Suffolk DA.

The vast majority of people wouldn't be able to name their police chief, never mind an elected sheriff.
Click to expand...

I get it. I just don't think MSP is all that much better.
 
M1911 said:
The county government in MA was horridly corrupt, which is why it has basically been disbanded. I absolutely positively do not want to encounter a MA deputy on the side of the road — these are guys that couldn’t get hired by MSP or a town PD.
Click to expand...

Absolutely Not...many sheriff's office officers work as part time cops. Yes many do move on to police, or other agencies but to say all deputies are wannabe cops and troopers because they couldn't get hired is false. Many Deputies in many counties work hand in hand with local and state police, whether on a task force, K9, Detectives, etc. I know more deputies/corrections officer that don't want to be cops or have anything to do with patrol duties than do. Years ago I could understand your statement but in recent years I think many deputies around the state have proven they can work with police and MSP and carry their own. Lastly, based on your statement of not wanting to encounter a deputy on the road...MA deputies mainly cover jail and transportation duties, not many if any perform patrol duties its just the way it is in MA. Just remember some of the smaller towns in MA that have part time cops, it just might be a full time deputy pulling you over in a police uniform and you would never know. End of the day were all brothers and sister and the stigma of deputies is improving and hope it continues.
 
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Boston4567 said:
No you don't. A new state trooper's base pay is about 65k. See here, bargaining unit 5A: Salary and Compensation

The state police operate specialized units that enforce commercial vehicle laws, reconstruct accidents in the event of fatalities, investigate statewide crimes like gangs, drugs, human trafficking, etc, assist with patrolling towns that are too small to have a large force, investigate arsons for the state fire marshal, have a bomb squad, apprehend fugitives, protect the governor, operate ballistics labs and drug labs, investigate computer crimes, etc. Plus they're the murder police everywhere except Springfield and Boston, show up to help at major events where there may be riots, and patrol Devens and Logan Airport.

So yeah, we can get rid of the state police, but someone has to do all that stuff, and do you really think it would be more efficient and effective if all these functions were decentralized, even if we figured out who to distribute them to?

And for the reasons Mike said, it doesn't make any sense (nor would it be desirable) to have municipal PDs patrol the highways. They do that in other states, and the result is atrocious, revenue-motivated speed traps all over the place, and a lack of consistency in enforcement. At least with the MSP I know I'm not getting pulled over if I'm paying attention to my surroundings and keeping it under 75. And I know exactly what an MSP cruiser looks like.
Click to expand...

Yes to the counties
 
M1911 said:
The county government in MA was horridly corrupt, which is why it has basically been disbanded. I absolutely positively do not want to encounter a MA deputy on the side of the road — these are guys that couldn’t get hired by MSP or a town PD.
Click to expand...
I am sure the same can be said for towns/cities and the state
 

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