MA School Posession question

[mdc]

I work at a MA University and have an LTC-A ALP. The law is pretty clear that one cannot carry on school grounds; however, it isn't clear what the rules are on having it locked in your trunk on school grounds. For instance, if I want to go to the range after work, can I leave it in my trunk on school grounds or not?

So I fired off an email to our campus police chief and she says that it is *not* legal to keep it in your car and that it constitutes "constructive posession".

To quote MA law:

(j) Whoever, not being a law enforcement officer, and notwithstanding any license obtained by him under the provisions of chapter one hundred and forty, carries on his person a firearm as hereinafter defined, loaded or unloaded or other dangerous weapon in any building or on the grounds of any elementary or secondary school, college or university without the written authorization of the board or officer in charge of such elementary or secondary school, college or university shall be punished by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars or by imprisonment for not more than one year, or both. For the purpose of this paragraph, “firearm” shall mean any pistol, revolver, rifle or smoothbore arm from which a shot, bullet or pellet can be discharged by whatever means.

It seems that either I don't understand the definition of "carries on his person", or there is some confusion at the other end. Does anyone have solid information on this?

 

[Admin]

Welcome MDC.

I'm going to move this to the gun laws section.

 

[USMA-82]

The 10th Edition of Chief Ron Gliddens Guideline to Mass Gun Laws for Law Enforcement addresses this issue. He says - no, it is not "carrying" if it is locked up in the trunk, so it should be OK to have it this way on school property.

But as my attorney friends say, nobody wants to be a legal "lab rat" and test the system....

 

[Dirtypacman]

Seems to me the only way you "could be" covered would be:

Written authorization of the board or officer in charge of such elementary or secondary school, college or university.


*** I am not saying this is the only way but by the letter of the law you qouted it would seem the only legal way of doing it***

 

[JonJ]

I've asked prosecutors this same question pointing out the fact that it is not carried on their person but locked in the trunk. They all said the same, "Charge him".

 

[mdc]

Ok, so it sounds like it is up in the air, and you are absolutely right, I have no need to be a legal test case.

I went so far as to look through LexisNexis for case law, but I didn't find much (then again I am no lawyer).

 

[Coyote33]

I've asked prosecutors this same question pointing out the fact that it is not carried on their person but locked in the trunk. They all said the same, "Charge him".

"Charge him" with what? You can't charge someone with a nonexistant law.

That said, I'd try to ask for the letter from administration.

 

[drgrant]

I've asked prosecutors this same question pointing out the fact that it is not carried on their person but locked in the trunk. They all said the same, "Charge him".

Isn't that the default prosecutorial behavior in this state for anything
involving a gun anyways? Unless it involves LE directly, or LE lets you
off the hook, then it's probably going to be a bunch of legal
pain... even if you are "right".

Of course then theres the "unsuitable person" death spectre.

I would venture a guess that if one does so, even if you are completely
within the law, it's still good idea to tread carefully.... eg- make sure that
cart never sees the horse and vice versa.

-Mike

 

[M1911]

"Charge him" with what? You can't charge someone with a nonexistant law.

Do you want to bet your freedom on that?

 

[JonJ]

"Charge him" with what? You can't charge someone with a nonexistant law.

It's not that it's a nonexistent law, it's the interpretation of that law. As was said above:

So I fired off an email to our campus police chief and she says that it is *not* legal to keep it in your car and that it constitutes "constructive posession".

So until someone who is charged and convicted fights this interpretation, it will be used.

 

[Chris]

The 10th Edition of Chief Ron Gliddens Guideline to Mass Gun Laws for Law Enforcement addresses this issue. He says - no, it is not "carrying" if it is locked up in the trunk, so it should be OK to have it this way on school property.

But as my attorney friends say, nobody wants to be a legal "lab rat" and test the system....

Up until the 4th edition of Chief Glidden's book, even he was saying no civilian guns on school grounds. We exchanged a bunch of e-mails over this when he asked for feedback on the 5th edition and I was happy to see him change his wording.

The sad part is that few cops know the exact wording of the law, and popular understanding is that schools are "gun free" zones. AKA "Sitting Duck" zones.

Please also note that you can not drive onto school property, unload and lock your gun up, and then go into the buildings. The gun must be off your person BEFORE you enter the grounds.

Also keep in mind that the SJC of Massachusetts has interpeted the following article of the Massachusetts Constitution:

Article XVII.

The people have a right to keep and to bear arms for the common defence. And as, in time of peace, armies are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be maintained without the consent of the legislature; and the military power shall always be held in an exact subordination to the civil authority, and be governed by it.

As:

The people of Massachusetts have no right to so much as touch a gun without express written permission from the king. (Paraphrased from Commonwealth vs. Huburt Davis)

You want to see a really textbook example of a Liberal Court using select 'expert' evidence to back their decision, this is a really good one to read (and it's fairly short) Link It's comical to note that the bulk of their references for denying the right is an interpretation of the meaning of the articles written in the 1960's and not nay kind of delving into the actual history. In fact, the court explicitly dismisses the actual history with the words "The meaning of such provisions is to be gathered from their history which is reasonably well known and need not be reviewed here in detail."

In other words, the courts routinely use their own opinions backed by their own select sources to pretty much make whatever ruling they want REGARDLESS of the wording.

Don't get me wrong, Mr. Davis was a criminal and very likely not a person I would ever want to see out of prison, but the fact that this case ignored the intent of the constitution is a very eye opening event in American history. Tehy talk about Activist Judges like it's a new thing. I give you the Massachusetts SJC, the original and still active Activist Court since at least 1976. Celebrating 30 years of official prohibition of lawful citizens to keep and bear arms.

 

[SiameseRat]

I wouldn't have even thought to ask about this and am somewhat surprised by the answers. If it's locked in your trunk, it is in a locked container as decided by MA law.
If it's in a locked container then how can it be on your person? I would figure that on your person means in your physical posession. So unless you're in your trunk it should be a moot point. What am I missing?

 

[Thor67]

I'd suggest getting the permission of whoever decides the issue at your University.

It seems unlikely that you'll actually receive permission, and sadly, asking may only seek to draw unwanted attention to yourself.

 

[mdc]

Of course when asking about the possession question I asked if I could get permission. She said that permission was never given except to armed security guards and the like.

Just to be clear, she did answer my questions and was very helpful and polite.

I believe that the interpretation that she is referring to is something similar to finding dope under the seat of my car. I am not possessing it on my person, but it is still mine. However, my inclination would be that if they meant possess, they would say possess, not possess on his person.

The best thing to go by would be case law. Until then I think everything is up for grabs. I am sure Chief Glidden knows more than anyone else, but I am not yet willing to bet my job, career, license and freedom on it. Do you happen to know what he is basing that interpretation on other than common sense?

I can't say that I was worried about drawing attention to myself---the campus is really large. Perhaps when I have tenure, I can stick my nose out a little further.

 

[KMaurer]

I'd suggest getting the permission of whoever decides the issue at your University.

It seems unlikely that you'll actually receive permission, and sadly, asking may only seek to draw unwanted attention to yourself.

You're about as likely as you are to get signed authorization from the Pope, with the signature witnessed by the Queen of England and the Emperor of Japan.

OTOH, I know at least one state college that provided on campus storage for personal defense firearms when I worked there in the 90's.

Ken

 

[JackO]

It seems unlikely that you'll actually receive permission, and sadly, asking may only seek to draw unwanted attention to yourself.

Not necessarily true. I work for a large private university in Greater Boston and had no problem obtaining a special permit from the Chief of Campus Police. To do so I had to join University Pistol and Rifle Club. But this permit specifies the exact locations on the campus where I’m allowed to bring my guns. Is it restrictive? Yes. But it gives me the right to bring my guns for practice at University range and keep them locked in my car (trunk) on campus. Also, if I plan to go to any other range after work, I legally bring the guns with me to work and keep them in the car.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Jack,

Sounds like MIT and that would figure as they are the "sole survivor" with a pistol range and active gun club in the college.

No other college that I am aware of has a range on-site and therefore no "reason" to grant this privilege.

I tried (in writing) at NU when my Wife was attending grad school, they still had a rifle range/club, and I was active in alumni affairs. Got "no dice" in writing and interesting conversation with NU's President (who I knew very well). About that time I joined the PD and no longer worried about their "permission slip"!

When I worked for BC PD, I had a similar discussion about co-eds and FID for OC. NO way would the campus police chief even consider it (prior to current chief). No idea if they have "mellowed" (on OC for co-eds) or not, but I'm certain "no guns on campus" means just that there.

 

[bpm990d]

Jack,
No other college that I am aware of has a range on-site and therefore no "reason" to grant this privilege.

Wentworth Institute of Technology has a range and a team, but you have to be a member of the team or be going to a match there to use the facility.

B

 

[Rob Boudrie]

One key point here is that 269 10(j) uses a different term "one one's person" than the remaining sections of chapter 269, which makes it very hard for the prosecution to effectively argue that the term does not have a specific and different meaning than the sections of the law which state "posession".

 

[Coyote33]

One key point here is that 269 10(j) uses a different term "one one's person" than the remaining sections of chapter 269, which makes it very hard for the prosecution to effectively argue that the term does not have a specific and different meaning than the sections of the law which state "posession".

See my post about consolidating definitions.

 

[n1heu]

Mass Maritime has a range also. I am an aquaintence of the Wentworth rifle team coach Gerry Sverdlin. He and I had this discussion. He is NOT allowed to carry concealed on school property. The schools arms are kept next to the range in a safe. If a student/team member brings his own rifle they must carry in a locked case directly to the range. They cannot keep them in their dorms for dry fire or hold practice.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Mass Maritime has a range also. I am an aquaintence of the Wentworth rifle team coach Gerry Sverdlin. He and I had this discussion. He is NOT allowed to carry concealed on school property. The schools arms are kept next to the range in a safe. If a student/team member brings his own rifle they must carry in a locked case directly to the range. They cannot keep them in their dorms for dry fire or hold practice.

That is exactly what I would expect from a MA college with a rifle team! Nothing more, nothing less!

Say hi to Gerry for me! I didn't know he was involved at Wentworth, but know him from BR&P.

 

[n1heu]

Don Lee was the head coach and Gerry was the assistant, however because of health issues, Don has stepped down. Gerry has been over there for a few seasons.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I know Don Lee also from BR&P.