MA Machine Gun License

[cekim]

I'm curious on that one too.

MG licenses are even more "town by town" than LTC's. So, while it is good to know what any given town might have done, it doesn't really answer the question about "your town," unless it was the same town.

MA law says that they are permitted to issue for two reasons:
1. Instructor
2. "Bona fide collector."

CMRs further state that for the purposes of MA laws, a C&R establishes one as a collector. This does not preclude using other means to establish yourself as a collector and "suitability" (or "super-suitability" in this case) does not preclude them adding additional proof. If gives you a point of contention to argue to a judge if they deny, but the case law on this is horrible as it states that "eligibility" does not imply that they are compelled to issue the license.

 

[50 BMG]

Fred,

Here is the most public pronouncement of this position from MGL C. 140 S. 129C Notes in Glidden's 17th Edition book.

So in short there is no statement from EOPS as you said earlier. Just an individuals interpretation. Last time I checked Gliddens isn't EOPS.

 

[cekim]

So in short there is no statement from EOPS as you said earlier. Just an individuals interpretation. Last time I checked Gliddens isn't EOPS.

EOPS has put it in writing as well as confirmed it over the phone.

 

[Len-2A Training]

So in short there is no statement from EOPS as you said earlier. Just an individuals interpretation. Last time I checked Gliddens isn't EOPS.

If you are saying that this is strictly Ron's personal opinion, I can only tell you that you are wrong. I know for a fact that it is EOPS opinion as well and that Ron just didn't invent that and put it in his book. I can not post any proof but I do recall seeing some significant proof of what I am saying . . . it just wasn't in any public area IIRC.

If you still doubt me, you should query the EOPS General Counsel, I'm sure that you'll get a reply that you won't like and that corroborates that position.

Ron's statement makes it clear how they came to that conclusion. You and I may disagree with the conclusion (I certainly do) but it fits with their other pronouncements of how they interpret MGL C. 140.

 

[50 BMG]

EOPS has put it in writing as well as confirmed it over the phone.

OK can someone tell me where we can find it.

 

[C-pher]

I would also like to know where to find this...

 

[Deer Slayer]

If you want a machine gun for cheaper then 15k just got to GFA arms tech in Natick but the only other problem is ammo and the trouble of getting a green card.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I received an Email this morning from Jason Guida, Director of FRB, asking that I post this here in response to some of the requests for "proof" that possession (mere touching) of a mg is illegal in MA w/o having a "green card" (mg license).

Massachusetts Law Prohibits the Possession of a Machine Gun without a Machine Gun License

G.L. c. 140, § 129C(m) allows an unlicensed person to possess a firearm, rifle or shotgun for examination, trial or instruction purposes while in the presence of an LTC holder. The exemption to the firearms licensing requirement in G.L. c. 140, §129C(m) does not apply to machine guns.

Only a person with a machine gun license issued under G.L. c. 140, §131(o) may possess a weapon that falls within the definition of a machine gun. Commonwealth v. Fleurant, 2 Mass. App. Ct. 250 (1974). An LTC permits the possession of a firearm, rifle or shotgun only. A person who holds an LTC cannot possess a machine gun and cannot supervise the possession of a machine gun under G.L. c. 140, §129C(m). There is no provision allowing for the unlicensed possession of a machine gun for examination, trial or instruction purposes under the supervision of a machine gun license holder in G.L. c. 140, §129C(m).

Unlawful possession of a machine gun is punishable by up to life in prison. G.L. c. 269, § 10(c). Furnishing a machine gun to a minor under the age of 18 is punishable by up to 10 years in prison. G.L. c. 140, § 130B.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

Wonderful. Looks like my sons and grandkids will only be firing my subguns in NH. Jack.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Wonderful. Looks like my sons and grandkids will only be firing my subguns in NH. Jack.

That is the best solution.

 

[MrScrewzloose]

Unlawful possession of a machine gun is punishable by up to life in prison. G.L. c. 269, § 10(c). Furnishing a machine gun to a minor under the age of 18 is punishable by up to 10 years in prison. G.L. c. 140, § 130B.

I find this part hilarious. So if shit hits the fan, find the nearest minor to give your MG too... Good to know.

 

[bill o]

I'm trying to think of any other prohibition on the mere touching, with permission, of an individual's lawfully owned property.

Are there any?

 

[turbo38gn]

If that's the case, how did the MG shoot in Westfield go on for so many years...

 

[drgrant]

If that's the case, how did the MG shoot in Westfield go on for so many years...

Probably because it just flew under the radar. I bet until this incident occurred, that a lot of pols didn't even know MGs were legal in MA.

-Mike

 

[cekim]

If that's the case, how did the MG shoot in Westfield go on for so many years...

I believe this "opinion" was driven by that event.

I don't think it will stand up in court either, but so far as I know it has not been answered in the courts. As with all things relating to "suitability" you have to ask yourself if you want to be the testcase.

 

[cekim]

I'm trying to think of any other prohibition on the mere touching, with permission, of an individual's lawfully owned property.

Are there any?

See discussions on PP's being allowed to handle/fire someone else's gun.

Though, they are felons. In this case we have two innocent people deprived of liberty without due process. There are all sorts of aspects of NFA that don't stand up to constitutional muster, but the NRA (or anyone else for the most part) has never had the stomach to challenge them.

 

[Broc]

Has anyone turned this into a poll yet? I would like to see how many people have their green cards and would like to hear the experience of getting it.

watch the Porsche shoot. Its on Youtube.

 

[SamH]

Bona fide collector

There are (hopefully still are) a few MG license holders on this site.

What are the standards your city/town set for the requirements ?

What constitutes "bona fide collector"

Anyone applied and was denied ?

I searched the web for "Machine Gun License denial" in Massachusetts, and could only find this 1 case. he applied as a "bona fide collector".

Pursuant to this rule making authority, the commissioner promulgated 520 Code Mass. Regs. Section 7.09 (1987), which reads in relevant part: "Bona Fide Collectors of Firearms shall mean any individual, licensed to carry firearms . . . who acquires firearms . . . for any lawful purpose including but not limited to historical significance, display, research, lecturing, demonstration, test firing, or investment. Nothing contained in this regulation shall effect the reasonable discretion of a licensing authority."

Section 131 prohibits the issuance of a license to possess or to carry a machine gun to anyone other than certain firearms instructors and bona fide collectors. In short, instructors and collectors are eligible to apply for, but not entitled to receive, the license. Whether an individual is a bona fide firearms collector who may be granted a license depends upon the purpose for which the applicant collects firearms.

Anyone granted a MG license for the second-bolded part above ? or does those parts also has major requirements ?

If people can't get MG license to fill the rule Lens posted, how are we gonna be able to attend MG shoots and demonstrations without becoming a felon ?

If denied, an appeal or lawsuit is fruitless in the Commiewealth ?

In an earlier post, I believe someone posted that the system is denying us a right without process.

 

[cekim]

SamH, it is going to depend DRASTICALLY on your town (and somewhat on you).

I wouldn't waste time with the internet. It can be done, you need to talk to your PD, politely and professionally. They are the ones that determine the requirements and those requirements range all over the map. There are some towns that deny outright. There are some towns that impose additional requirements beyond C&R. There are some towns that will impose a "heightened" standard of "suitability."

CMRs state (slight paraphrase) that a C&R "shall be sufficient for the purposes of establishing the holder as a bonafide collector", BUT, see above, none of that matters. Contact your Licensing Officer and ask him what the department policy on this is and go from there.

 

[willbdavis]

If people can't get MG license to fill the rule Lens posted, how are we gonna be able to attend MG shoots and demonstrations without becoming a felon ?

Monadnock is in NH. There's no such thing as a Machine Gun License in New Hampshire. So you're good to go for NES shoots. As far as I know all Massachusetts-based public MG shoots became extinct following the Westfield case.

 

[drgrant]

What constitutes "bona fide collector"

Anyone with a Type 03 C&R qualifies, however, some PDs don't even require that. (I'm referring to the PDs that issue licenses, the ones that don't, none of this matters because you just get blown off out of the gate. )

Anyone applied and was denied ?

It doesn't usually work that way. Most denials are in the form of "We don't issue MG licenses" not a formalized statutory denial. At that point most people don't bother saying "but I still want to submit the paper application!" if they already know they are going to get denied.

If people can't get MG license to fill the rule Lens posted, how are we gonna be able to attend MG shoots and demonstrations without becoming a felon ?

The short answer is that the Westfield incident is basically the end of public MG shoots in MA for the foreseeable future- unless the law gets changed (unlikely) or a lawyer has a good legal firing solution to use against any potential attack in court.

So the easiest way to legally shoot an MG without a green card is to go to a free state (like NH) and do it there.

-Mike

 

[Broc]

Step 1) find out where the Chief gets his coffee and doughnuts every morning.
step 2) coincidentally show up at the same time and say good morning.
step 3) bump into him at the range (only after he saw you at least 10 times at the coffee shop)
step 4) shoot with him and talk to him, and see if you can meet up with him to shoot again
step 5) bring up your question about applying for a machine gun license
step 6) apply for one

Forget about talking to him if you live in a red town. He is better than you are.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Step 1) find out where the Chief gets his coffee and doughnuts every morning.
step 2) coincidentally show up at the same time and say good morning.
step 3) bump into him at the range (only after he saw you at least 10 times at the coffee shop)
step 4) shoot with him and talk to him, and see if you can meet up with him to shoot again
step 5) bring up your question about applying for a machine gun license
step 6) apply for one

Forget about talking to him if you live in a red town. He is better than you are.

Lots of assumptions here!

1. & 2.) Doubt that my chief eats donuts (sorry to disappoint). [Note: In >15 yrs working for the Department, I NEVER saw donuts in the break room. They did eat real nice fresh muffins however on the back shift . . . local shop baked them overnight so they stopped in and got some every night.]

3. & 4.) Never saw any of my 3 chiefs on the range! First chief (a Marine) had personal shooting trophies in his office. Second chief never carried a gun (really) and I'm sure never qualified in the last 20 years of his career. Current chief is a real good shot (told to me by one of our firearms instructors) but hates guns. Probably only goes to qualify when he's the only one there with the instructor. I've offered to host him as my guest at either club, no interest.

5.) During a conversation about a couple of things I did ask and he said "no reason why he wouldn't issue me a mg license". That's all I wanted to hear.

6.) Don't have the desire for a mg nor the money for one and to feed it, so I'll pass. Just happy that he'd issue if I wanted it.

Oh yeah, I live in a deep red town!

 

[Colt Delta Elite]

3 made me LOL that never happens.

 

[SamH]

I just died a lil-bit more inside.

 

[Broc]

Lots of assumptions here!

1. & 2.) Doubt that my chief eats donuts (sorry to disappoint). [Note: In >15 yrs working for the Department, I NEVER saw donuts in the break room. They did eat real nice fresh muffins however on the back shift . . . local shop baked them overnight so they stopped in and got some every night.]

3. & 4.) Never saw any of my 3 chiefs on the range! First chief (a Marine) had personal shooting trophies in his office. Second chief never carried a gun (really) and I'm sure never qualified in the last 20 years of his career. Current chief is a real good shot (told to me by one of our firearms instructors) but hates guns. Probably only goes to qualify when he's the only one there with the instructor. I've offered to host him as my guest at either club, no interest.

5.) During a conversation about a couple of things I did ask and he said "no reason why he wouldn't issue me a mg license". That's all I wanted to hear.

6.) Don't have the desire for a mg nor the money for one and to feed it, so I'll pass. Just happy that he'd issue if I wanted it.

Oh yeah, I live in a deep red town!

3 made me LOL that never happens.

I know about Number 3, that's why its there.

But the donuts, I never said they would last long enough to make it to the office.

 

[cekim]

I just died a lil-bit more inside.

Try balling up in the shower and rocking back and forth...

 

[mike98]

how do you get this permit?

 

[Len-2A Training]

I received an Email this morning from Jason Guida, Director of FRB, asking that I post this here in response to some of the requests for "proof" that possession (mere touching) of a mg is illegal in MA w/o having a "green card" (mg license).

Massachusetts Law Prohibits the Possession of a Machine Gun without a Machine Gun License

G.L. c. 140, § 129C(m) allows an unlicensed person to possess a firearm, rifle or shotgun for examination, trial or instruction purposes while in the presence of an LTC holder. The exemption to the firearms licensing requirement in G.L. c. 140, §129C(m) does not apply to machine guns.

Only a person with a machine gun license issued under G.L. c. 140, §131(o) may possess a weapon that falls within the definition of a machine gun. Commonwealth v. Fleurant, 2 Mass. App. Ct. 250 (1974). An LTC permits the possession of a firearm, rifle or shotgun only. A person who holds an LTC cannot possess a machine gun and cannot supervise the possession of a machine gun under G.L. c. 140, §129C(m). There is no provision allowing for the unlicensed possession of a machine gun for examination, trial or instruction purposes under the supervision of a machine gun license holder in G.L. c. 140, §129C(m).

Unlawful possession of a machine gun is punishable by up to life in prison. G.L. c. 269, § 10(c). Furnishing a machine gun to a minor under the age of 18 is punishable by up to 10 years in prison. G.L. c. 140, § 130B.

The problems I have with this "RULING" are as follows:

- If anyone goes into a Class III gun shop and even just touches a mg with a finger, they are subject to prosecution and life in prison! NO KIDDING . . . I asked this of Jason and that was the "legal answer". The likelihood of getting caught may be nil, but if someone wanted to go after someone it's a great "setup" to send someone away forever! And don't think that there aren't some rabid DAs that wouldn't do this!

- Here's an even worse example that I just thought of this morning! I remember probably 10 years ago when the MA NG had an exhibit at the Springfield Gun Show where they had mgs, mortars, jeep, etc. on display and people could touch them! See above!!!

- Absolute worst example I can think of! Returning troops from the sandbox. "Family Day" at an Armory and they might (never attended, so this is strictly hypothetical) let family members TOUCH some of the weaponry on display. And people just love to take pictures of such things and these days they post them to Facebook and/or YouTube . . . prima fascia evidence of a "major crime" with a life sentence possible!

Can you just see the potential for abuse.

[Jason, I carried your water and posted your message but I have some real heartache over this RULING! Any prosecution in examples like the above would be a serious abuse of the INTENT of the law!]

 

[Len-2A Training]

how do you get this permit?

In Watertown, which only gives out crippled LTCs, I'd say that your chances are less than ZERO!

However, you apply on the same form as you used for the LTC. Having a C&R FFL is an automatic "qualifier" according to the law.

Many chiefs refuse to issue any mg licenses. Some will issue them, so you should always inquire first because if their policy is "no mg licenses, period", you'd just be wasting $100.00 and have to put the denial down on every application for any gun license forever in any state where I've seen their application forms.