MA compliant Para pistols? S16 .40 legal???

OK, I'll bite:

Pistol Pete, which list? The somewhat useful (but non-definitive, unless LEO) EOPS, or the REAL list (the one with the double secret handshake)?

-Gary
 
gws1063 said:
Pistol Pete, which list? The somewhat useful (but non-definitive, unless LEO) EOPS, or the REAL list (the one with the double secret handshake)?
Click to expand...

As LEOs are expressly exempt from the "consumer safety" requirements, meaning no list applies to them; and there is no such thing as a "real list" other than that posted above, just what ARE you talking about?

Do you even know? [rolleyes]
 
Scrivener said:
Hey, here's a REALLY radical idea:

Bestir yourself enough to actually LOOK!

The site has been posted on this forum many times, not to mention the obvious expedient of going directly to the FRB website. If that's too much for you, go here:

http://www.mass.gov/Eeops/docs/chsb/firearms/approved_firearms_roster_02_2006_revised.pdf
Click to expand...


First off there is ABSOLUTELY NO reason to be so frigen Rude!!!! If you can't answer the question without being snide then please don't reply to my topic. I did look on "the list" and DID see the gun there but then again that list doesn't mean anything becuase there are god knows how many other lists that they need to appear on. So YES I did check "the list" and I "DID" see it on there but then again on that same list I see "Glocks" which we can't buy new and many other models.

These forums are a great way to communicate when people are civil.

Thanks for nothing.

Pete

Oh yeah, and the list you posted is the exact one that I looked at before posting this topic. Again, that list doesn't mean anything as 1/3 of the guns on that list are still not MA compliant.
 
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I did look on "the list" and DID see the gun there but then again that list doesn't mean anything becuase [sic] there are god [sic] knows how many other lists that they need to appear on.
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Reality check: Yet again, not only are there NOT "god knows how many other lists;" there is only one - the one you now claim to have checked.

As the gun you wish to purchase is ON that list, the presumption is that, barring aberrant actions by the AG (as w/Glock), the gun is legal to purchase in MA.

The obvious answer to your question would be to call your local dealers and ask is it in stock. Or is the obvious beyond you?

Again, that list doesn't mean anything as 1/3 of the guns on that list are still not MA compliant.
Click to expand...

I'll bite - OTHER than the aforementioned Glocks, what guns are on the list but not "MA compliant?"
 
Scrivener said:
I'll bite - OTHER than the aforementioned Glocks, what guns are on the list but not "MA compliant?"
Click to expand...

Let's see I just counted 30 Kahr pistols 27 Glocks 2 Mausers I counted 61 Para pistols but I believe only 16 or so are truely MA compliant 1 Seacamp and who knows how many others that we can't easily get.

I'm not looking to start a pissing contest I'm only trying to get info for a new shooter that is starting out in IPSC. He's trying to weigh his options and I figured I could help him out by getting some help from people on this board but maybe I was asking too much!
 
Pistol Pete:

The P16-40/S16-40 are on the EOPS list. Since they are single action with a safety, I suspect that they will meet the AGs requirements. Problem will be finding pre-ban magazines.

There are a number of shops that carry ParaOrd. I suggest you give them a call and see if they will sell your buddy a P16-40.
 
PistolPete said:
He's trying to weigh his options and I figured I could help him out by getting some help from people on this board but maybe I was asking too much!
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Tell him to get a Revolver
grinning-smiley-021.gif


SINNLOS.gif
 
Round Gun Shooter said:
Tell him to get a Revolver
grinning-smiley-021.gif


SINNLOS.gif
Click to expand...

We're too young to shoot those round guns. We need to stick with the bottom feeders. Plus, we are still able to count past 6 so until 6 is as high as we can count the bottom feeder is the way to go!!!! haha

Actually, I've been shooting with HDGun quite a bit and he's got me intrigued by the whole round gun thing. However, my wife will kill me if I buy a revolver after just spending $4000 on an open gun....
 
PistolPete said:
Let's see I just counted 30 Kahr pistols 27 Glocks 2 Mausers I counted 61 Para pistols but I believe only 16 or so are truely [sic] MA compliant 1 Seacamp [sic] and who knows how many others that we can't easily get.
Click to expand...

Glocks ARE available, if only the refurbished ones. If they were not on the list, they would not be available at all. I see Paras for sale in my local shop and see on this board where people know of new Kahrs being sold.

I'm not looking to start a pissing contest I'm only trying to get info for a new shooter that is starting out in IPSC.
Click to expand...

Then he/she needs to choose from what is available, which is a function of the list and which stores carry the gun in question. That will determine which division your friend will compete in.

Claiming now you actually looked at the list before posting is contradicted by your ORIGINAL post, which asked whether the gun in question is ON the list. I stand by my response.

Ranting about non-existent secret lists in an ex post facto rationalization achieves nothing. As the onus is on the seller, not the buyer, the real answer is to see what is in the stores. Again - STILL - the answer is to do the research!
 
PistolPete said:
We're too young to shoot those round guns. We need to stick with the bottom feeders. Plus, we are still able to count past 6 so until 6 is as high as we can count the bottom feeder is the way to go!!!! haha
Click to expand...

See, that is where the misconception is with the modern youth. It is Not counting to six, it is dividing by six without taking your shoes off you youngsters can't handle [wink]
 
MR.S please try to be less aggressive with your responses. No need to be a dink.

Pete AFAIK I could be wrong here, the gun is not available to MA customers for reasons of not being submitted for testing of Adolf Riley's consumer safety requirements.

Give your local gunshop a call. They should know the answer.
 
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Moderator said:
MR.S please try to be less aggressive with your responses. No need to be a dink.

Pete AFAIK I could be wrong here, the gun is not available to MA customers for reasons of not being submitted for testing of Adolf Riley's consumer safety requirements.

Give your local gunshop a call. They should know the answer.
Click to expand...

Correction required:

- There is NO submission for testing to Adolf Reilly's (note spelling) "consumer safety" requirements,

- Mfr MUST "self-certify" that it meets the AG's "requirements",

- AG neither confirms or denies said "self-certification",

- If AG "objects" at ANY TIME (i.e. Glock was allowed to sell for 4-6 weeks before the hammer dropped), he sends a bill ($5K/gun sold), threat of a lawsuit for violating the Ch. 93A Consumer Protection Law, and a "cease and desist" order to said mfr . . . along with holding a "press conference" to warn all buyers and sellers (MA dealers) that these are evil and non-compliant weapons and mere possession or sale will cause the ultimate collapse of civilization.
 
Scrivener said:
As LEOs are expressly exempt from the "consumer safety" requirements, meaning no list applies to them; and there is no such thing as a "real list" other than that posted above, just what ARE you talking about?

Do you even know? [rolleyes]
Click to expand...

Is everyone THIS helpful around here? [rolleyes]

As a matter of fact, yes, I generally DO know what I'm talking about. I was referring to the "unofficial" list of handguns which the AG presumably has smiled upon. I know there is no official list other than the EOPS. I also know that this list is somewhat meaningless for a commoner (AKA civilian) if you are trying to find what is truly available in a NEW, current model handgun.

If you recall, there have even been attempts to divine the "unofficial" list right here on NES! By the way, from my last conversation with the AG's office, the "onofficial" list perhaps could be more official than one might expect. It was implied that manufacturers are currently doing more than "self certifying" and totally ignoring the AG's office. Perhaps as a result of the Glock fiasco, manufacturers MAY be notifying the AGs office when they believe they have a model which meets requirements (although I have no direct knowledge of this).

So Scriv, how 'bout I stuff some cash in my pocket and we go to the Kahr dealer of your choice so you can show me how easy it is to pick up a shiny new PM9. It is on the EOPS list and since there IS no other list, then . . . [wink]

-Gary
 
While Keith brings his usual bright, friendly Hauptsturmführer Mengele attitude to the response, his point is perfectly accurate. The only valid guide as to what you can purchase from a dealer in Massachusetts is the experience of what a dealer will sell you. There is no AG list, and different dealers have different degrees of (fully justifiable) paranoia with regard to what they can safely sell. If a dealer will sell you what you what, buy it. If not, no list created from anecdotal evidence here or advice from any of us will affect that reality in the slightest. The only help anyone here might actually give would be to note that "Frisby's Guns on Route 666 in East Pequod had one of those for sale when I was in yesterday." In any case, any problems that might arise after the sale would be the dealer's concern, not yours, since there is no law against purchasing an "unapproved" gun, only against a licensed dealer selling one.

Ken
 
Yes, sorry Len you are correct. There is no submission. I don't know why the hell I typed that. I know it is up to the manufacture to make sure they meet the requirements. [doh]
 
gws1063 said:
As a matter of fact, yes, I generally DO know what I'm talking about.
Click to expand...

I am hopeful that is correct, your declarations about "the list" being of benefit only to LEOs, to whom it is wholly irrelevant, and your claims about double-secret probation lists notwithstanding. Perhaps, like a certain employee of one of the largest dealers in this state, you mis-spoke in a "Homer Moment."

I was referring to the "unofficial" list of handguns which the AG presumably has smiled upon. I know there is no official list other than the EOPS. I also know that this list is somewhat meaningless for a commoner (AKA civilian) if you are trying to find what is truly available in a NEW, current model handgun.

If you recall, there have even been attempts to divine the "unofficial" list right here on NES! By the way, from my last conversation with the AG's office, the "onofficial" list perhaps could be more official than one might expect. It was implied that manufacturers are currently doing more than "self certifying" and totally ignoring the AG's office. Perhaps as a result of the Glock fiasco, manufacturers MAY be notifying the AGs office when they believe they have a model which meets requirements (although I have no direct knowledge of this).

So Scriv, how 'bout I stuff some cash in my pocket and we go to the Kahr dealer of your choice so you can show me how easy it is to pick up a shiny new PM9. It is on the EOPS list and since there IS no other list, then . . . [wink]

-Gary[/QUOTE]
 
gws1063 said:
As a matter of fact, yes, I generally DO know what I'm talking about.
Click to expand...

I am hopeful that is correct, your declarations about "the list" being of benefit only to LEOs, to whom it is wholly irrelevant, and your claims about double-secret probation lists notwithstanding. Perhaps, like a certain employee of one of the largest dealers in this state, you mis-spoke in a "Homer Moment."

If you recall, there have even been attempts to divine the "unofficial" list right here on NES! By the way, from my last conversation with the AG's office, the "onofficial" [sic] list perhaps could be more official than one might expect. It was implied that manufacturers are currently doing more than "self certifying" and totally ignoring the AG's office.
Click to expand...

And yet we have another reference to an imaginary list. [rolleyes]

Note also that there is no such thing as "self-certifying," absent the "formal target shooting" exemption, which still requires the AG's approval, tacit or otherwise. GCAB approval and placement on the roster requires INDEPENDENT lab tests, submitted DIRECTLY to the GCAB by the lab. Rationalize THAT as "self-certifying."

As for your learned discourse with some unidentified entity at the AG's office, unless you represent a manufacturer, what substantive information do you think you would obtain and what tangible benefit are you under the delusion you received?[rolleyes]
 
Scrivener said:
I am hopeful that is correct, your declarations about "the list" being of benefit only to LEOs, to whom it is wholly irrelevant, and your claims about double-secret probation lists notwithstanding. Perhaps, like a certain employee of one of the largest dealers in this state, you mis-spoke in a "Homer Moment."

And yet we have another reference to an imaginary list. [rolleyes]
Click to expand...
Indeed, I apologize. I was told by two different dealers that the EOPS list effectively applied to LEOs only. Mea culpa. (Hence, the qualifier "generally".) Whether this is the case or not, the fact remains that the EOPS list is a superset of what we mere mortals can purchase new.

As for the "imaginary list", is it merely imaginary in your eyes since it cannot be produced in hard copy, perhaps? Nevertheless, there are some handguns which the AG's office is aware of being sold in our great state which this week, last week, and the week before, they are hunky dory with. This effectively creates an operative list for today, whether documented or not.

Scrivener said:
Note also that there is no such thing as "self-certifying," absent the "formal target shooting" exemption, which still requires the AG's approval, tacit or otherwise. GCAB approval and placement on the roster requires INDEPENDENT lab tests, submitted DIRECTLY to the GCAB by the lab. Rationalize THAT as "self-certifying."
Click to expand...
I assume you are referring to someone else, since I never claimed anything about the process you describe (with which I agree, BTW).

As for your learned discourse with some unidentified entity at the AG's office, unless you represent a manufacturer, what substantive information do you think you would obtain and what tangible benefit are you under the delusion you received?[rolleyes]
Click to expand...
I think learned is stretching it a bit. I have absolutely no intention of identifying the individual with whom I spoke, since that serves no purpose here. I am under no delusion about the value of any information I have received. I merely had an interesting conversation with someone in the AG's office, thought something they implied was pertinent to this thread, and thought I would share it. If you find no value in what I have posted, that is fine with me. Perhaps others might, however.

-Gary

(Still waiting for info on where I can get that tasty new Kahr, BTW)
 
gws1063 said:
I assume you are referring to someone else ["self-certification"], since I never claimed anything about the process you describe (with which I agree, BTW).
Click to expand...

Let's go to the videotape! From YOUR post:

It was implied [in your conversation with "Deep Threat" @ the AG's office] that manufacturers are currently doing more than "self certifying" and totally ignoring the AG's office.
Click to expand...

QED

(Still waiting for info on where I can get that tasty new Kahr, BTW)
Click to expand...

Go to the For Sale section; I believe the reference was in the thread about small 9mm pistols. I believe someone stated they'd seen new and used Karh 9s available.
 
KMaurer said:
While Keith brings his usual bright, friendly Hauptsturmführer Mengele attitude to the response, his point is perfectly accurate. The only valid guide as to what you can purchase from a dealer in Massachusetts is the experience of what a dealer will sell you. There is no AG list, and different dealers have different degrees of (fully justifiable) paranoia with regard to what they can safely sell. If a dealer will sell you what you what, buy it. If not, no list created from anecdotal evidence here or advice from any of us will affect that reality in the slightest. The only help anyone here might actually give would be to note that "Frisby's Guns on Route 666 in East Pequod had one of those for sale when I was in yesterday." In any case, any problems that might arise after the sale would be the dealer's concern, not yours, since there is no law against purchasing an "unapproved" gun, only against a licensed dealer selling one.

Ken
Click to expand...

Thank you for your valuable comments, Ken. The notion of a "grey" zone is something I had not yet encountered. Nevertheless, the data that "Frisby's in East Pequod is selling the Funster .40!" is still useful. If I wanted a Funster .40, I'd haul my kiester over to Frisby's right away, before old man Frisby changed his mind (or the AG changed it for him). If Frisby, Four Seasons, Tombstone, Ware, etc. etc. have ALL been selling the Funster .40 for over two years, that is even more valuable. As you point out, the only thing that matters is whether or not a given dealer will sell you the model you'd like today. Having SOME data, even anecdotal, is still helpful.

I'm feeling bad for Pistol Pete. A useful response would have been: "I think the S16 .40 is OK, I just bought one at Frisby's last week!". Either that, or deafening silence since no-one has ever purchased one. Instead, we get a (semi-civil) discourse on whether or not it is even appropriate to ask the question, and whether or not the form of the question is acceptable. Sigh.

-Gary
 
Scrivener said:
Let's go to the videotape! From YOUR post:
Click to expand...
I think you have to roll that tape back a bit more , Scriv. I was referring to LenS' comments:
LenS said:
- Mfr MUST "self-certify" that it meets the AG's "requirements",

- AG neither confirms or denies said "self-certification",

- If AG "objects" at ANY TIME (i.e. Glock was allowed to sell for 4-6 weeks before the hammer dropped), he sends a bill ($5K/gun sold), threat of a lawsuit for violating the Ch. 93A Consumer Protection Law, and a "cease and desist" order to said mfr . . . along with holding a "press conference" to warn all buyers and sellers (MA dealers) that these are evil and non-compliant weapons and mere possession or sale will cause the ultimate collapse of civilization.
Click to expand...
Which has nothing to do with the GCAB process you quote.

Scrivener said:
QED
Click to expand...
~QED

My comment still stands. It was implied that the AG's office is receiving advance notice from manufacturers that model XYZ has a "clearly visible loaded chamber indicator, etc., and meets the AG's requirements", as opposed to merely self-certifying this info (see Glock), bypassing the AG, and going right to retail.

Scrivener said:
Go to the For Sale section; I believe the reference was in the thread about small 9mm pistols. I believe someone stated they'd seen new and used Karh[sic] 9s available.
Click to expand...
Sorry, been to the For Sale section, been to the dealers. I'm referring to a specific model, a PM9, which hit the EOPS list within the last year. I picked this example for a reason. I'm not saying I cannot buy any Kahr in Mass. (I can certainly buy anything grandfathered) I'm just saying that contrary to your claims, it appears to be impossible to purchase a new model Kahr on the EOPS list since it apparently does not have all the AG's bells and whistles - or so the Kahr dealers claim.

-Gary
 
Well what have we learned from this topic???

First, NEVER to ask any questions on this board even after you do some research because you are uncertain about anything because "someone" will try to turn the thread into a pissing contest. Thanks for all your help buddy.

Next, that the topic was indeed a good one because as we've all found out 3 pages later that still no one knows for sure if this gun is legal for gunshops to sell "NEW". Seems that my original question has still yet to be answered!!!

We also found out that some "people" or some "person" can be arrogant and rude but remember that person is "god" and he knows best.

We've also learned that 99% of the people on this board are awesome yet that 1% just doesn't play well with others.

Anyways, thanks for being so helpful, Buddy!!! I hope you can help more of us out because you did such a great job here. At least I didn't lose any credibility or respect here. I wish I could say the same for you. Have a great day!
 
Pete with respect,

I understand your aggravation. This forum is here to help those of us who may need answers. It is a place where we can all talk about our 2nd amendments and other topics of interest in a respectfully manner.

Keith as I and other mods have said before. Stop being an arrogant pecker head. You can either respect the other members on this board or you can take a hike. I for one have had enough of your petty BS. I don't want to hear how you have gone over this time and time again. If you are sick of repeating yourself then just leave the topic alone.
 
I second what BJ said, and Pete please don't get discouraged. Most here are very willing to help, and please disregard Keith.
 
Thanks for everyone being on my side. It's people like him that just don't belong on these forums. I know every forum has these trolls but luckily we only have the 1. This forum is great and so are the people. Some people just like to hear themselves speak or in this case type.

Seems that everyone here feels the same as I do about this individual.

Thanks again,
Pete

ps. I think my brother is leaning towards an STI limited gun instead of the Para. I'll keep ya posted.
 
Moderator said:
MR.S please try to be less aggressive with your responses. No need to be a dink.
Click to expand...
Agreed - [smile]

Pete,
This is a tricky subject - The "Lists" are confusing - there is an "Approved Firearms Roster" http://www.mass.gov/Eeops/docs/chsb/firearms/approved_firearms_roster_02_2006_revised.pdf but this "approved" list also needs to comply with some other AG requirements.

Some FFLs do use this list and do interpret that if it's on this "List" they can sell it here in Mass - as "Mass Compliant" other FFLs will not as they feel it must also follow some other AGs requirements.

From http://www.ago.state.ma.us/sp.cfm?pageid=1170

B. THE EFFECT OF THE APPROVED FIREARMS ROSTER ON THE ENFORCEMENT OF THE ADDITIONAL PRODUCT REQUIREMENTS OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S HANDGUN SALES REGULATIONS

The Attorney General's handgun sales regulations include three product requirements that are not shared by the Chapter 140 handgun product requirements, and that are not tested for the Approved Firearms Roster:

child-safety features
940 CMR 16.05(2), (4)
load indicators and magazine safety disconnects for semi-automatic handguns
940 CMR 16.05(3), (4)
tamper-resistant serial numbers
940 CMR 16.03
A handgun that is listed on the Approved Firearms Roster might not satisfy these three additional product requirements. If a handgun does not satisfy these three additional requirements, then it is a violation of the regulations for a handgun purveyor to transfer that handgun even if the handgun is listed on the Approved Firearms Roster.


My suggestion would be to call a few FFLs and see who is selling what.
Someone may have what your looking for..

Hope this helps!
C-ya.
Paul
 
Moderator said:
MR.S please try to be less aggressive with your responses. No need to be a dink.

Pete AFAIK I could be wrong here, the gun is not available to MA customers for reasons of not being submitted for testing of Adolf Riley's consumer safety requirements.
Click to expand...

Not all that long ago most of the para LDA and single stacks were
all legal- then for some reason people stopped selling them, and now para
has a bunch of new stuff out. The stuff that hasn't "resurfaced" has been
all the cool 5" double stack guns, though... which is kind of bizarre.

Someone once told me the guns had to be recertified because Para-Ord
changed something on them. I'm not completely sure if thats true,
however.

The consolation prize here is that used paras seem to turn up all
the time, in various configurations. I think they must've sold a
buttload of them during that "window" from a year or so ago... well, that, and
I think some shops pretty much consider them "compliant" at least when
someone brings one in as a trade-in.

I agree with Paul- you may be pleasantly surprised to find an FFL who will help you
out.


-Mike
 
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