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MA-centric NFA FAQ
- Thread starter EasyD
- Start date
Mass-diver
NES Member
Mine just bounced back (9months to the day) for not including my LTC. My first stamp went through just fine without it (1.5 years ago). Both were paper (non-e forms), SBRs through
trust.
Sending it back tomorrow, hopefully won't be too much longer. It makes zero sense as a trust can't have an LTC.
Well, that kind of is the core of the problem. There is no inherent "Free by default" ownership in MA of anything firearm related. BATFE is a bunch of jerkwads when it comes to ensuring "legality of ownership" on an NFA transfer. My guess is this change is as a result of the meddling bullshit that went on a few years ago where the state tried, in a very limpwristed fashion, to destroy the validity of NFA trusts but failed to do so.
-Mike
Mass-diver
NES Member
Got my stamp today, so less than 2 weeks door to door on the correction, which is good at least.
not that i've heard. just do it bro.
A question for the legal experts. LLCs and corporations have $500 annual filing fees. Non profit corporation annual filing fees are only $15 - why aren't more people creating non profit corporations as entities for their NFA firearms?
Because a trust works and has no tax implications.
Nothing to be taxed if your corp doesn't generate money though, right? Or 501(c)3 if you really wanna push the envelope. I'm not trying to be argumentative - just contemplating an alternative for if/when the trust solution is legislated away.
RockMaple
NES Member
Gun trusts are preferred by many people over business entities such as corporations or LLCs due to their affordability and simplicity, as well as the privacy that they provide.
There wouldn't necessarily be any tax obligations (other than reporting obligations) as a result of using an business entity (only if you have a profit), but you would have ongoing public filing obligations (annual reports). Annual reports aren't particularly burdensome, but a lot of people would prefer to avoid this hassle and prefer the privacy of a trust. Also, you have to pay $500 a year for the privilege of being incorporated in the commonwealth, on top of the costs of forming the entity. As for formation costs, at present, I charge a flat fee of $650 for LLC formation, which includes the certificate of formation and an operating agreement. This does not include the $500 filing fee (payable to the commonwealth).
As an aside, a corporation formed for private benefit (such as holding title to firearms) wouldn't be able to get 501(c)(3) status (exemption from federal income tax). And even if it was possible or beneficial to seek the exemption, it would cost $400 just for the application, and would take at least 4 months (possibly 18 months or more) to receive your approval. In certain instances, you might be able to form as merely a non-profit, however. Note that not all non-profits are 501(c)(3)s, but all 501(c)(3)s are non-profits.
I'm happy to discuss offline if you're interested in learning more.
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Thank you very much for your reply. My understanding was the annual filing fee for a non profit corporation was $15 annually - not the $500 of LLCs and for-profit corporations. Excellent point on the 501c3 - I hadn't considered the "public benefit" need. The only hang up I see with trying the "non profit" experiment is the need for a president, treasurer, and secretary - plus annual meetings. With a trust you only need another "trustee." I presume you'd only have to change the date on your filing form and resubmit the same one every year.
Where do you currently practice? I see you are licensed in two states - I might want to swing by, if I may.
edit: nevermind - followed the links in your profile. I might have to give you a visit next time I'm up north!
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RockMaple
NES Member
The annual report for a MA nonprofit is $15, but there is also the annual tax filing ("Form PC"), which costs $35 (at minimum). More importantly, Form PC compliance can be a major pain. Again, I just can't imagine too many scenarios where an entity (whether for profit or nonprofit) would be a better solution than a trust.
That Guy
Banned
I've been looking for the answer to this and I can't find it on NES or the ATF website.
Can I apply for an NFA stamp for a suppressor using Maine as my part time residence? I recently learned that standard firearm sales using 4473s recognize part time residency and spell out the requirements for such, which makes me wonder if I, as a Mass resident with a house in Maine can get NFA items (a suppressor) as long as I don't transport them out of the state.
I hope that makes sense.
Can I apply for an NFA stamp for a suppressor using Maine as my part time residence? I recently learned that standard firearm sales using 4473s recognize part time residency and spell out the requirements for such, which makes me wonder if I, as a Mass resident with a house in Maine can get NFA items (a suppressor) as long as I don't transport them out of the state.
I hope that makes sense.
RockMaple
NES Member
Interesting question. The instructions for question 2 of Form 4473 includes the following: "If you are a U.S. citizen with two states of residence, you should list your current residence address in response to question 2 (e.g., if you are buying a firearm while staying at your weekend home in State X, you should list you list your address in State X in response to question 2."
Based on these instructions, assuming you are in fact a dual resident, it seems that you could lawfully acquire a suppressor while you were in Maine (while staying at your second home). Just make sure you explain the situation to the Class III dealer. I'd recommend talking to Uel at Weaponcraft in Saco. http://weaponcrafttraining.com/ Tell him Jeff Bussell sent you.
As an aside, because having dual residency can subject one to taxation in Maine (with it's confiscatory tax rates), unless someone is already a dual resident, I'd advise against it. I usually counsel NFA trust clients with summer homes in Maine or New Hampshire to have a full-time resident trustee acquire and store their trust's suppressors.
Based on these instructions, assuming you are in fact a dual resident, it seems that you could lawfully acquire a suppressor while you were in Maine (while staying at your second home). Just make sure you explain the situation to the Class III dealer. I'd recommend talking to Uel at Weaponcraft in Saco. http://weaponcrafttraining.com/ Tell him Jeff Bussell sent you.
As an aside, because having dual residency can subject one to taxation in Maine (with it's confiscatory tax rates), unless someone is already a dual resident, I'd advise against it. I usually counsel NFA trust clients with summer homes in Maine or New Hampshire to have a full-time resident trustee acquire and store their trust's suppressors.
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That Guy
Banned
Thanks for the input.
just to clarify, I am not a dual resident, but a part time resident. I have a domicile with an established address, etc, but I do not declare dual residency, specifically because of the crazy tax rate it would leave me. But as far as I can tell from the ATF, they recognize part-time as well as dual residency.
Ill check with Uel at Weaponcraft and will definitely let him know you referred me. Thanks again.
just to clarify, I am not a dual resident, but a part time resident. I have a domicile with an established address, etc, but I do not declare dual residency, specifically because of the crazy tax rate it would leave me. But as far as I can tell from the ATF, they recognize part-time as well as dual residency.
Ill check with Uel at Weaponcraft and will definitely let him know you referred me. Thanks again.
RockMaple
NES Member
Based on the example used in the instructions, it would appear that a "part-time resident" would qualify. Good luck and please keep me posted (here or by PM). I'd to hear how you make out.
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That Guy
Banned
I received a PM from an NESer (I won't out him here unless he chimes in himself) who tells me he was able to get NFA items in my exact situation. Sounds good! Next step, NFA trust.
RockMaple
NES Member
Sorry Jack, just saw this now. You should upload your LTC and those of any and all other co-trustees of the trust. Your application will likely be rejected without it. Good news is that if your application is still pending, you should still be able to upload it.
turbo38gn
NES Member
Awesome info, did it last night, everything seems good, thank you. I was sweating, going to do a couple more forms, I feel like I have it now.
My next problem... how do I do another, do I just change the original line item ..
I tried to just start from scratch, clicking on form 1 and filling everything out again with an Uzi this time.. when I get to finish and click it... after acting like it is loading something, it goes back to the form screen and everything is gone... can we only apply for one at a time.....>?
My next problem... how do I do another, do I just change the original line item ..
I tried to just start from scratch, clicking on form 1 and filling everything out again with an Uzi this time.. when I get to finish and click it... after acting like it is loading something, it goes back to the form screen and everything is gone... can we only apply for one at a time.....>?
The system is buggy. Sometimes it doesn't "take" and the form stays in draft status.
Once a form is submitted you should not go back and edit it. Create a new form and that will show up under form 1, form 4, or wherever it belongs.
You can also save templates if you are submitting the same info multiple times.
Once a form is submitted you should not go back and edit it. Create a new form and that will show up under form 1, form 4, or wherever it belongs.
You can also save templates if you are submitting the same info multiple times.
I've done 3 SBR's now, all electronically filed, and have not provided the LTC of co-trustees, only my own. They haven't rejected it.
Since we all know how consistent the ATF is, YMMV.
RockMaple
NES Member
Good to know. I advise clients to include them since there is no harm in doing so.
Mass-diver
NES Member
I don't think such a thread exists
ATF-41P. CLEO sign off no longer needed. Only notification.
Takes effects in 180 days... Mark your calendars.. July 3/4th , 2016
Takes effects in 180 days... Mark your calendars.. July 3/4th , 2016
I was under the impression that this goes into effect once it is "officially published" and that has not happened yet? Anyone hear or read this info? If so, then the 180 day counting hasn't begun.
