M1 Carbine that shoots around corners

[depicts]

I walked into a gun shop in Freedom, NH today and saw a gun I've3 never seen before.

It was a mint, Winchester made M1 carbine that had an obviously GI issue barrel attachment that slipped on the front of the barrel, rotates into position and locks. The attachment was curved, sort of like this ), but a little more curve.

The gun was with an original canvas case that also looked mint, and some other accessories.

Strange Mil-Surp. Not my thing but it was neat.

They were asking $2800.

 

[vellnueve]

I doubt it was GI issue, but certainly could be a trial/prototype item.

Various countries, including the Nazis, experimented with that sort of thing.

 

[depicts]

I doubt it was GI issue, but certainly could be a trial/prototype item.

Various countries, including the Nazis, experimented with that sort of thing.

vellnueve, I saw the piece, it was GI.

No offense, but I'll wait to hear what some of the more experienced Mil-Surp collectors have to say when they check in.

I'm former military, and I think I have a decent command of Military markings, proof marks and materials to be pretty damn sure this set was original Army issue.

Thanks for trying to help though.

 

[Beansie_Time]

I could be wrong but I remember seeing something about these on the discovery channel. IIRC they were issued to tank crews to shoot enemy soldiers who were trying to climb up the side of the tank.

 

[vellnueve]

vellnueve, I saw the piece, it was GI.

No offense, but I'll wait to hear what some of the more experienced Mil-Surp collectors have to say when they check in.

I'm former military, and I think I have a decent command of Military markings, proof marks and materials to be pretty damn sure this set was original Army issue.

Thanks for trying to help though.

Army/General issue means that it was adopted for use. It can be a surplus military device without having been GI.

The United States military captured a number of these devices during the war, and extensively tested the concept and the actual equipment. It is very possible that these captured pieces were remarked with US markings as much of the captured German equipment was. They had barrels that would bend 30 degrees up to 90 degrees (the latter was found to be fairly useless due to the drastic loss of velocity required).

No such device was ever adopted for general use by the US, to the best of my knowledge. However, I am not expert enough, and will bow to the wisdom of the more experienced Milsurp collectors.

 

[2000GM]

I could be wrong but I remember seeing something about these on the discovery channel. IIRC they were issued to tank crews to shoot enemy soldiers who were trying to climb up the side of the tank.

I was thinking the same thing.

 

[depicts]

Army/General issue means that it was adopted for use. It can be a surplus military device without having been GI.

The United States military captured a number of these devices during the war, and extensively tested the concept and the actual equipment. It is very possible that these captured pieces were remarked with US markings as much of the captured German equipment was. They had barrels that would bend 30 degrees up to 90 degrees (the latter was found to be fairly useless due to the drastic loss of velocity required).

No such device was ever adopted for general use by the US, to the best of my knowledge. However, I am not expert enough, and will bow to the wisdom of the more experienced Milsurp collectors.

vellnueve, very gracious response.

Having been a "GI", I have known "GI" to mean Government issue, not general issue.

I never said it was it was "GENERAL ISSUE".

Furthermore, it wasn't "RE-MARKED" captured enemy stuff, because it was custom fit to the barrel of the M1 allowing the extension to slip over the front sight and rotate into position and lock on, much like the Bayonette on a Mosin Nagant. It snapped into place with a retaining device that clipped into the front site. It was made specifically for this gun, not an altered captured piece. Even the metal finish matched the M1 finish, and it was not re-done, to the best of my observation and comparison.

I've Googled "M1 carbine shoots around corners, barrel extension, curved barrel adaptor", and got many hits that indicate the US Army used several such devices on various arms, especially for tank crewmen to use through the ports of the tank to defend from enemy soldiers mounting the tank.

I havent found a picture yet, or exact production numbers, but I havent added "Winchester" to my search yet, and it may be produced at the same spot the carbine was, since as I said the finish matched, and was original, and showed slight use, as .if it had been used

I'm 58, and I admit I have a lot to learn. I was however MUCH more knowing about "everything", when I was 24, so maybe you're right!

You're into Mil-Surps. Before you make a statemen t like, "I doubt it was G.I.", see what "G.I." means to the general military population. Then, using your knowledge, help me to find out more abaout this gun and accessory, before you dismiss it as.... "maybe a re-marked enemy weapon" or not likely to be G.I.

I look forward to any info you pass on with any reference, but I'd rather not just get your first "opinion" that you "DOUBT" it was "G.I.".

I might have gotten a bit "hot" from your "somewhat" know-it-all response, and I'm glad now I edited out half my comments to you. Maybe before you jump in with an answer you should ask yourself... "do I REALLY know what I'm talking about here" before you post, and "am I adding anthing worthwhile to this thread with my comment."

I know you have a strong drive to comment on EVERYTHING posted on this forum, as evidenced by your post count. Let me share the words of Ben Franklin with you. "Better to remain silent, and be thought a fool, than to speak and prove it."

Not calling you a fool. I'm just saying you have a habit of posting first about almost everything, when you would serve yourself better by listening and learning sometimes before you try to show us how bright you are with your comments and vast experience.

I was just like you in my twenties, but another famous American, Will Rogers, said once, "When I was 18 my father was an idiot. I was surprised by how much "HE" learned by the time I became an adult."

I have to admit, I seldom read your posts, because I've come to feel you post just to show off or try to impress me with your encyclopedia like mind.

Try a little "restraint" and more thought to your rapid responses, and I think I for one would respect your obvious enthusiasm and bright mind far more.

Oh how I wish I was 24 again and knew it all like I did then, instead of now at 58 when I realize how very little I know about most anything.

You're a good kid, but you don't always have to try to prove to us how smart you are.

Bill

 

[Len-2A Training]

I could be wrong but I remember seeing something about these on the discovery channel. IIRC they were issued to tank crews to shoot enemy soldiers who were trying to climb up the side of the tank.

I think I recall seeing that too, probably on the History channel (only because we rarely watch Discovery).

The United States military captured a number of these devices during the war, and extensively tested the concept and the actual equipment. It is very possible that these captured pieces were remarked with US markings as much of the captured German equipment was. They had barrels that would bend 30 degrees up to 90 degrees (the latter was found to be fairly useless due to the drastic loss of velocity required).

Huh, you imply that the Germans captured US M1 Carbines and experimented with them and then the US "re-captured" them and followed the German experiments?

I am no expert here, but this sounds much too far-fetched.

The US Gov't is always experimenting with weapons. Much more likely that the US did this as an experiment to see if this could be helpful in not exposing troops in certain situations while laying down suppressive fire.

Depicts, I know that one of the guys who was active on the C&R FFL List worked at Aberdeen Proving Grounds for ~20 years (IIRC correctly) doing experiments on small arms. Don't recall who that was or if he is still on that list, but that list might be a source of more authoritative info. Contact me directly for more info about the List if you need it.

Here are some other M1 Carbine resources that I bookmarked. One or more might be useful in finding out more info.

http://www.jouster.com/cgi-bin/carbine/carbine.pl
http://www.eotacforum.com/viewforum.php?f=110

 

[depicts]

LenS, Dick Culver (Maj, USMC Retired) who owns the jouster.com site is an old friend of mine since the days he hired me to Photograph all the NRA trophies at Camp Perry when he held the position of Director of the CMP for a year back in the Mid 90's.

I wasn't that curious about the gun, because I saw it, know it was real. Maybe I'll do what you say though. I'll call Dick or his wife Gloria and get an answer from their board experience.While Dick doesn't call himself a "Carbine" expert, I'm sure he knows several. As head of the USMC Sniper School, "Kaboom" (Dick Culver's nickname) was a bigger fan of the Garrand. (Just a silly side note to impress you with my contacts in the gun industry. not unlike what I accused vellneuve of doing.

btw Len, this was in the same gunshop that wouldn't sell me the C&R M&P Pistol that was owned by the guy who, along with McElhaney in Waltham, missed the deadline to refile an appeal to the court case preventing out of state shipment of ammo and guns in Mass.

 

[jrbtzx12r]

Depicts, this place had an M1 carbine with a Krummer Lauf barrel on it? Wow! I've never heard of any US Mil rifle with these. Did it have the periscope sight on it? Pretty cool!

 

[vellnueve]

I also consulted with a friend last night who works in intel for the Army. He knows a lot about the weird kinds of things that they've experimented with, and doesn't think that the US has ever issued any such item.

Aberdeen would be a good place to start (I think that's where I saw one of the Stg44 models). Other possible areas include the National Firearms Museum/NRA which might have info.

Also, depicts, if you were to look at my posting history, I think you'd find plenty of instances of "I don't know." I don't know everything, not even close, but M1 Carbines are my thing, and in everything I've ever read or seen, I'd never seen or heard of any such device. It does not mean that they don't exist, but I did know that the US captured a number of them and tried them out, so it's certainly very possible that they built something similar for trials on American firearms. I don't know, and I doubt the answer will be easily found on the web, more likely it'd be found in some archives somewhere.

If I come off as a know-it-all, just read my inane questions about ARs on the firearms forum and you'll see that it's not true.

 

[The Village Idiot]

Saw the show on the best rifles the other night and the German STG-44 had a barrel developed for it that could shoot around corners:
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as51-e.htm

Shown in fourth pic down.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Might try Springfield Armory Museum via a phone call?

 

[vellnueve]

Saw the show on the best rifles the other night and the German STG-44 had a barrel developed for it that could shoot around corners:
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as51-e.htm

Shown in fourth pic down.

That's the only one I'd ever heard of that went into actual production/use. Supposedly causes a fragmentation effect.

I think pretty much all of the current SWAT etc type firearms that shoot around corners use a pistol that is located forward of the hinge on the device, as mentioned previously.

Problem with the Germans is that they spent too much time building interesting but impractical devices like this and not enough time building Gew 43s or the Stg 44s themselves (not to mention the various debacles with jet production). I guess that's what you get when your leader is a totalitarian egomaniac.


Edit: Did some searching and found a reference to experimental versions used on the M3 Grease Gun.

# 12099 - Shoot Around The Corner Guns
7/1/2006
Kathy

I am an Activities Director for a group of Senior Citizens in upstate NY. In a recent Trivia game the question asked "Did WWII German Infantrymen have curved extensions for their rifles to allow them to shoot around corners? \" The answer was "yes" and many of our veterans questioned this answer. Do you have any articles about this weapon I can share with them or even a picture. I thank you in advance for helping these very curious veterans!

Answer:
Kathy- Please tell the vets that we thank them for their service to our country, either in front line combat units, or in the huge numbers needed to train, support and supply the combat troops. All who served helped win their wars.

The correct answer is "yes." There were "shoot around the corner" devices for some small arms in WW2. However, the numbers made were extremely small, basically just for experimental use. Thus it is very unlikely to be encountered by probably 99% of our troops, hence their unfamiliarity with them. I have never seen one in private collections, but a few are in military museums.

While it was not very difficult to bend a barrel to shoot around a corner, the problem is that there was no practical way to aim at anything around the corner, so such devices were pretty ineffective. As in most armies, troops quickly decide what equipment adds sufficiently to their effectiveness and survival to justify carrying it around with them. Apparently the "shoot around the corner" stuff was not deemed worth lugging around.

While apparently a German innovation, the U.S. Army tried a "shoot around the corner" device intended for attachment to the M3 submachine gun ("grease gun") thinking that it may be handy for tank crews to clean enemy troops from the area around their tank. As with the German devices, this never progressed past the experimental stage.

I have seen photos of the devices, but it would take some digging to find them and I cannot spare the time right now. John Spangler

 

[The Village Idiot]

That's the only one I'd ever heard of that went into actual production/use. Supposedly causes a fragmentation effect.

I think pretty much all of the current SWAT etc type firearms that shoot around corners use a pistol that is located forward of the hinge on the device, as mentioned previously.

Problem with the Germans is that they spent too much time building interesting but impractical devices like this and not enough time building Gew 43s or the Stg 44s themselves (not to mention the various debacles with jet production). I guess that's what you get when your leader is a totalitarian egomaniac.

You do know that Hilter hated the STG-44 so the army developed them in secret under different names. Just one of the reasons that there were relatively few manufactured.

 

[vellnueve]

Yeah.

Like the initial development of the Me262 as a bomber, and of the AR234 as a recon aircraft.

Like I said, totalitarian egomaniac, doing things to his own disadvantage because they weren't his idea in the first place.

 

[vellnueve]

Posted a request for info on the CMP Carbine forum, and one of the more knowledgeable posters there had this little tidbit.

There were both 45 degree and 90 degree deflection devices made for the M1 carbine by a firm named The HF Company.

No word on whether these were actually ever Army issue. The only other ones they know of are the few examples used on the Grease Gun.

 

[depicts]

Posted a request for info on the CMP Carbine forum, and one of the more knowledgeable posters there had this little tidbit.



No word on whether these were actually ever Army issue. The only other ones they know of are the few examples used on the Grease Gun.

Thanks vellnueve. Good information. I think I might drive back up to NH just to look at that gun again and take some pictures of the "deflector".

+1 for your effort and attitude

 

[vellnueve]

If I wasn't about to get deluged in work, I'd take a ride up there myself and have a look. What shop is it? (Don't worry, I don't have $2800 anyway)

When I post something, it's based on the best info that I have, but when I'm wrong I really love chasing down the correct information. That's how we all learn. Unsurprisingly, various searches for the company came up blank.

 

[depicts]

vellnueve, I can't remember the name of the shop. Lots of people on this board know about it though. If you go up Rt 16 in NH toward Conway, and take Rt 25 at Center Ossippee toward Maine about 7 miles down Rt 25 is a store just before the state line. It's one of those.... sells everything kind of store. Pizza, gasoline, milk and groceries, bait, Ice Cream cones, hunting licenses, fishing gear and a gun shop. I'm probably forgetting some of the things it sells.

I found a mint pre model 10 M&P revolver in there I wanted to buy, but the owner and I got in a disagreement about whether he could sell me a C&R gun with my C&R license, because I lived in Mass. After that I didn't take a lot of time looking around. The guy was in a huff, and after he said that "Me and McElhaney were the ones who took Massachusetts to court for three years to fight the ban on selling out of state stuff into mass. It was then I realized he and McElhaney were also the ones who didn't file their appeal on time to protest the lower court decision, and is most likely the main figure to blame for the fact that we can't order guns and ammo from out of stat any more.

My opinion of the guy sunk like lead, and I had to leave before I puked on him.

Ask one of the NH guys what the name of the shop is on Rt 25 in Freedom, NH at the state line. The owners name is Wayne. Maybe you could even call him. I know I can't. He sees my name on caller ID, and he'd hang up. I had given him my C&R license, and I'm sure after our little "discussion", he has my name burned in his memory.

 

[PatMcD]

I've been in that shop a few times. I always thought it was the Freedom Trading Post or Freedom Gun Shop or something like that. His prices were always pretty decent. I usually find a box of "stuff" to buy.

When I first read the initial post, my first reaction was exactly like Vellnueve; "no way that is USGI. The rifle, yes. But the barrel: no way". I don't know everything and am not an expert on M1 Carbines, but have probably read more than most on USGI weapons. I've never read about carbine barrels that shoot around corners. Not to say the military never fooled around with that stuff, just I've never seen it. The carbine guys over on Jouster would know.
If it trully is legit, $2800 sounds like a steal.

 

[The Village Idiot]

Steve's Market
State Route 25, Freedom, NH 03836
(603) 539-7774