M1 carbine serial number

[Amd813]

My buddy just picked up an m1 carbine produced by IBM. It has a 4 digit serial number, 9842 with no other markings. From what I can tell a 4 digit serial number is pretty rare. It has a L aperture sight, push button safety and no bayo lug. Stock is marked “SCB”. Anything the gurus of NES can tell me about it?

 

[Marty McFly]

Low numbers like that are probably 1942 1943 . Thats an estimate from what I know. Grain of salt

 

[PappyM3]

M1 Carbines were all pretty hodgepodge with parts from all sorts of manufacturers. It’s hard to say much without taking it completely apart.

But I can say that’s not the full serial number. IBM was allotted the following serial number range, and made them from October 1943 to June 1944

3 651 520

4 009 999

All serial numbers under 1 million were either Inland or Winchester.

Do you have a picture of that “SCB” cartouche on the stock?

 

[jakeroub]

Yeah, that serial looks wonky to me. Appears to be hand stamped, and with too large of a font...

 

[Amd813]

 

[jakeroub]

SCB is for Sprague & Carleton Co. who did make socks for IBM.

 

[jakeroub]

And a 4-digit SN should be of Inland manufacture.

 

[Amd813]

Interesting, wondering if it could be a parts build. The trigger guard has a different four digit number, 2894 i believe.

 

[cathouse01]

IBM was notorious for bad roll marks for their serial numbers. Here is an example of one that was subcontracted to Auto Ordinace:



Notice how the 3 at the beginning and the 22 at the end appear to be completely different from the 9044 in the middle. Now it could be that the OP’s carbine has a real roll mark problem where the first digit and the last two digits are just missing. That would mean the actual serial number would be something like 39342XX.

Another possibility is that there were actually two roll markings as in this picture:


In this case the thought is that the “390” was done with one roll mark and the “6262” was done with a separate roll mark. So here the possibility would be that they missed the first roll mark on the OP’s gun and its serial number should be 3909342.

In any case I don’t know of any IBM M1 carbine with an actual 4 digit serial number, but an IBM carbine with this kind of error might be pretty rare.

As far as I can tell highest known IBM receiver serial number is 3968546 so either 39342XX or 3909342 would be within the range of known serial numbers (they started at 3651520).

Very interesting. Probably need to find a real avid M1 carbine collector to get to the bottom of this.

 

[mac1911]

Look closely for import stamps on barrel , some are very small.
The entire roll mark looks bad but like said it could just poor from the get go. The serial number just looks wrong though. You never know what your going to find. I know to old guys who where “correcting” carbines and garands for decades.

i would post on cmp or gun boards

my gut says it was a reimport and at some point in its life scrubbed and restamp where ever it came from?
looks like a nice piece though
Inspect with a good magnifier or even close up pictures and then play with the shading to see if you can pick up any traces... i almost feel like I can see a zero or 8 just under the the last 2 numbers?

 

[jakeroub]

Mind if I post it on the CMP forum? I don’t think the owner will like what they have to say though...

 

[PappyM3]

Interesting, wondering if it could be a parts build. The trigger guard has a different four digit number, 2894 i believe.

That’s the thing with M1 Carbines, it’s really hard to tell. No company made all the parts for any one carbine. The numbers all around the carbine will be different even if it’s an original carbine. However, depending on the manufacturer, you can narrow down which companies could have made the other parts. For example, if IBM made the receiver, then only companies X or Y could have made the tigger assembly... and the marking indicates that company Z actually made the trigger assembly. But if X or Z made the trigger assembly, then you can continue to have a plausibly authentic gun.

 

[PappyM3]

More information:
Here is some info about IBM serial numbers and when they were made. And all IBMs had IBM barrels, so you can look for the IBM stamp on the barrel and check that date to see if it’s plausible with the




For an example of how to identify the mishmash of parts in an M1 carbine, here is a chart for the trigger housing:


I also highly recommend these two books. The blue one mostly for assembly/disassembly. And the other is the Bible for M1 Carbine identification.

 

[Amd813]

Mind if I post it on the CMP forum? I don’t think the owner will like what they have to say though...

Feel free to post it up there, the owner is as intrigued as we are.

Also @PappyM3, thanks for the info and resources. I'll pass them along. Regardless, the rifle seems like a sweet little package, can’t wait to shoot it today.

 

[PappyM3]

Feel free to post it up there, the owner is as intrigued as we are.

Also @PappyM3, thanks for the info and resources. I'll pass them along. Regardless, the rifleseems like a sweet little package, can’t wait to shoot it today.

One other thing. With that type of rear sight, it looks like it’s never been through depot reset after the war. That adds value. Depending on the safety and if it doesn’t have a bayonet lug would confirm that. Bayonet lugs do help increase accuracy for this gun, but no bayonet lug is more valuable.

 

[jakeroub]

Here is a link to the post on the CMP forums:

4-Digit IBM?? - CMP Forums

Please post your questions and comments regarding CMP Carbine Sales here!

forums.thecmp.org

 

[Amd813]

Interesting. Seems there must have been some mistake when stamping this rifle, or something must have been changed along the way. Thanks for the help guys.

 

[PappyM3]

Interesting. Seems there must have been some mistake when stamping this rifle, or something must have been changed along the way. Thanks for the help guys.

Was this one of the carbines that came home from Ethiopia recently? It’s possible that the serial number was worn away and the Ethiopians restamped it. A number of those carbines never went to depot refit to have sights, safeties updated and bayonet lugs put on.

 

[jpm]

Another possibility is maybe its a 'lunchbox gun' that someone stamped a s/n on?

 

[Amd813]

Was this one of the carbines that came home from Ethiopia recently? It’s possible that the serial number was worn away and the Ethiopians restamped it. A number of those carbines never went to depot refit to have sights, safeties updated and bayonet lugs put on.

I don’t think so, it was bought used from a local FFL a couple days ago.

 

[Amd813]

Another possibility is maybe its a 'lunchbox gun' that someone stamped a s/n on?

What exactly is a “lunchbox gun”?

 

[cathouse01]

What exactly is a “lunchbox gun”?

 

[millbilly]

Agreed looks very wonky. Ill post pics of a genuine m1 carbine receiver sn tomorow.

 

[Hardwired]

It looks like the receiver was scrubbed and the SN removed long ago. You can see the Grind On the finish going up the arch to the rear sight plateau. Then was restamped with that large “Bogus” looking font number.

I would check the barrel marking for IBM as posted above.
Also check if the receiver was a cut reweld.

Basically if a SN looks wonky and does not fit the assigned SN range, “Don’t buy, don’t buy”.

Here is a real one:

 

[jpm]

What exactly is a “lunchbox gun”?

That was where the workers at the factory making the guns would put a piece in their lunchbox and bring it home until they had enough pieces to assemble the complete gun. I think it was most common with 1911s.

 

[mac1911]

Some info on welded receivers.

"Welded" receivers - Beware ! - The Carbine Collector's Club

Hi all,I thought that "welded" receivers had all been flushed out by now, but a new collector...

www.uscarbinecal30.com

Take a real good look for import marks, my bluesky M1 and M1 carbine stamps are so light and faint you need to wipe a bit of clp across them to see them.

 

[Amd813]

It looks like the receiver was scrubbed and the SN removed long ago. You can see the Grind On the finish going up the arch to the rear sight plateau. Then was restamped with that large “Bogus” looking font number.

I would check the barrel marking for IBM as posted above.
Also check if the receiver was a cut reweld.

Basically if a SN looks wonky and does not fit the assigned SN range, “Don’t buy, don’t buy”.

Here is a real one:

The barrel is marked as IBM just under the front sight. Any reason why the gun would have been ground and restamped? Regardless, the rifle shoots great and is pretty damn accurate. We even managed to get a couple hits at 300 yards with it. I'll have my buddy look for signs of a re-weld upon dissasembly as you and @mac1911 noted. Thanks!

 

[mac1911]

The barrel is marked as IBM just under the frond sight. Any reason why the gun would have been ground and restamped? Regardless, the rifle shoots great and is pretty damn accurate. We even managed to get a couple hits at 300 yards with it. I'll have my buddy look for signs of a re-weld upon dissasembly as you and @mac1911 noted. Thanks!

Stolen, imported back into usa?
who knows really.