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Lucky my brother carries.
- Thread starter Wicked1911
- Start date
bigtig50
NES Member
The "brandishing" ( the word is beginning to annoy me ) most definitely saved their possessions and quite possibly their lives. I will say again, any of you who have never been in a situation like this, though still entitled to your opinion, cannot truly say what should or should not be done. For me.thew choice comes down to one of two: 1) Do I want to deal with the possibility of breaking a law, or 2) Do I want to deal with the possibility of being hurt or killed. When you look at it, there is really only one choice.
Open Carry is legal in MA as far as I understand. Maybe it is frowned upon, but there is no law that says the OP could not have just walked around with his gun in the open. This situation is an excellent reason why OC should be clearly supported by the law. So, unless he drew his weapon, then he did nothing wrong.
Also, he is with his wife. I think that there is very little he can do to flee unless he abandons her. No sane LEO, DA, Judge or Jury is going to take issue with defending your wife.
Also, he is with his wife. I think that there is very little he can do to flee unless he abandons her. No sane LEO, DA, Judge or Jury is going to take issue with defending your wife.
bigtig50
NES Member
I agree with you, but to take it a step further, if I have to defend my wife (family) I will not give to s**ts what LEO, DA,Judge, Jury or the freaking Easter bunny think about it.
^^^^^This
I mean seriously, some of you guys sound like you would have answered the same way Dukakis did when asked about a criminal raping and killing his wife
If you are only "pretty sure" then, and no offense intended, not "street smart " enough to pull that off. Body language, how you carry yourself, dress, appearance, ethnicity/race are all factors. If you look like food you will be eaten, on the other hand some perps won't care or won't think you look tough enough, others fueled by drug addiction will do anything and don't care if you are openly carrying two .45's, they are desperate.
I try to be situationally aware and avoid hot spots when I can. I'm not that tough looking, MYOB and pack whenever I can.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
When was the last time you were in that area of Boston?
Man, there are some seriously fearful people here.
Any single guy who does not hang out in Boston is an idiot. The talent is deep.Glad they're okay. Boston is a shithole. I was just having a conversation with a lady friend who's partying at clubs in Boston. I'm like, not even my knife is legal there. What a joke. Stay safe everyone.
What you gonna do for fun on the North Shore - go to Karaoke Night at Capone's? I lived in NH when I was young and single - I was an idiot.
Hiltonizer
Banned
Worked a few blocks from there 7 years ago, frequented it for lunch over the last 7 years... maybe 2 months ago?
Not single, neither was he apparently.
Carry a pistol openly is not at all the same as going out of your way to show someone a firearm. Lifting up your shirt and showing someone a pistol in this context is obviously with the intent of suggesting to the person you have a gun and the ability to shoot them. Its a direct threat to that person. It's clearly more threatening than just openly carrying a firearm.
The law is the law. You take your wife by the hand and start beating feet. It makes no sense to say you cant retreat because youre with your wife, at least it makes no sense to me, unless she's on crutches, or has one leg, or something.....
"Society wishes to encourage all of us to come to the aid of each other when that is necessary. Therefore, a person may use reasonable force when that is necessary to help another person, if it reasonably appears that the person being aided is in a situation where the law would allow him to act in self-defense himself."
http://www.mass.gov/courts/courtsan...s/criminal/pdf/9260-defenses-self-defense.pdf
Welcome to Massachusetts. To come to the defense of your wife she'd need to be justified in the use of lethal force herself. Since youre both with each other and in the exact same scenerio with the same threat its sort of a non factor i think. If you don't, "do everything reasonable in the circumstances to avoid physical combat before resorting to force", if you don't "exhaust all other reasonable alternatives before resorting to force." you're looking at criminal charges for killing someone. I dont think saying, "well i was with my wife so we stood there/walked a leisurely pace, and shot the guy" is reasonable.
I really dont understand this whole idea that its possible that if you dont brandish a firearm you could be killed. If you're worried about being killed then pull the gun. If you're not worried about getting killed, why make the argument that you're going to be killed? I dont get it.
Its not like i'm rooting for the bad guys or something here...... I'm on you guys side. The only reason i'm going out of my way to say this stuff is to try to help you guys not get ****ed by the laws we have, as i understand them. I'm just trying to point out what the laws are in ma and that IMO i dont see how brandishing is ever a good idea.
(FYI, not that it really matters to the substance here, but "Brandishing" is exactly what this is:
bran·dish
1. To wave or flourish (a weapon, for example) menacingly.
flour·ish**
A bold or extravagant gesture or action, made esp. to attract the attention of others.
men·ace
a. A possible danger; a threat
b. The act of threatening.)
Agreed. My thoughts are if I feel the need to show my gun, I'm going to war. These folks aren't playing games, and neither am I. Deescalation is them running away, but I'm not going to have my back to them, hoping that flapping my shirt tail in the breeze with my holstered gun out is going to be enough to win the day. Having a concealed firearm gives me many advantages, declaring that I'm armed without immediately bringing that advantage to bare is poor tactics.
falcon123
NES Member
Wouldn't you rather have your friends have a candle light vigil in your honor? it seems so nice.
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^Exactly what I was trying to say. I think a few may have misunderstood me thinking that I was afraid to "brandish" because it's illegal. Quite frankly, I couldn't give a flying f@#k about the law in a situation like the one described, it's all about making tactically smart moves, and in my mind "showing" my cards before I need to throw em down is going to a) get me shot if the BGs are also packing, or b) maybe they get frightened off because I win the big dick contest by flashing my gun. The smart player doesn't show his hand until he NEEDS to. But to all the tough guys that feel the outcome would always be more like example (b), then by all means show em what ya got!
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
Last edited:
I am not sure if you are a lawyer, and may have the best of intentions, but I think you missed the part about brandishing not being a law here in Mass and if you should worry more about your safety then dumbass laws or a bank account.
1st point to take away, don't WAIT to be a victim, be aware of your surrounding. OP's family, FELT threatened, took a very minimal amount of action that HE felt would diffuse the situation. His feeling threatened is enough to take action. You may not agree to showing, and think running, jumping, begging may have been a better choice, but the 2nd point here- do something to eliminate the situation (besides waiting for someone else to take action for you) and worry about the details of shit laws later. As it didn't happen here but still important, if the police did show up for showing a firearm the 3rd take away- when dealing with the Police, KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT and get legal assistance.
tl;dr
Wow I go to China town all the time..Usually once or twice a month..Have any of you that say its a shat hole been down there in the last 20 years??..It is far from the Combat zone that it was when I was a kid..I am more worried about getting jumped in downtown Worcester than I am in China town.. Anyone not asian sticks out like a sore thumb and the blue vest China town patrol is usually not to far behind them ![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
Wow I go to China town all the time..Usually once or twice a month..Have any of you that say its a shat hole been down there in the last 20 years??..It is far from the Combat zone that it was when I was a kid..I am more worried about getting jumped in downtown Worcester than I am in China town.. Anyone not asian sticks out like a sore thumb and the blue vest China town patrol is usually not to far behind them
Honestly I am there all the time. Never feel any different than anywhere else. Shit, you could be robbed by 4 20 year olds in your ****ing living room while watching a red sox game in the middle of East Overshoot. Makes no difference.
Read all the posts, time to re-read this one from years ago. I didn't write it, but I like it.
Lately in GD we have had two different board members find them selves looking down the barrel of a gun along with the GF of another ARFCOMMER in street robberies. Also Blitz308 got shot all to pieces last year.
While many say it is better to be lucky than good, no one is lucky every time. In this post I am going to attempt to provide some insight into street encounters. Other may have different viewpoints. I am not here to argue. I will say some of the comments I have seen posted in the threads about this sort of matter make me realize that while some ARFCOMMERS are clearly street veterans others are not. This is really for those who are not.
Background
First, my info. I worked in the street of one of America's most violent, dangerous cities for 15 years. I usually worked in the worst part of that city. I spent 15 years in patrol. I liked patrol. It was wild. Most of the time I worked in areas covered in ghetto. By that I mean large housing projects combined with run down slum housing. I have worked all shifts. Later I became an investigator including a robbery investigator. I have spent countless hours in interrogation rooms talking to hold up men. I know them. I am still an investigator but have quit playing the Robbery game because my family was starting to forget what I looked like.
The Enemy
Some may object to me calling hold up men "the enemy". You can call them whatever you like. I can assure you however they are as deadly an enemy as you will find anywhere but the battlefield. Even many soldiers probably lack the viciousness and utter disregard for life most hold up men possess.
No one wakes up in the morning one day and decides to become an armed robber. It is a gradual process that requires some experience and desensitizing. Before a man will pick up a gun and threaten to kill people who have done him no harm in order to get their usually meager possessions he has to get comfortable with some things.
He has to get used to seeing others as objects for him to exploit. He has to accept he may be killed while robbing. He has to accept the felony conviction for Robbery will haunt him all his life. He has to accept he may need to kill a completely innocent person to get away with his crime.
This is a process that starts with stealing candy at the corner store as a child. It progresses through bigger property crimes that may also involve violence. But one day G gets tired of selling his stolen property for nothing and decides it would be better to steal cash. Cut out all that tiresome sales stuff.
Keep in mind many petty thieves, auto burglars, residential and commercial burglars, paper thieves, and hustlers will get to that point and decide not to become armed robbers. Most will. It is a special group of outliers who decide threatening to kill people for a few dollars is the way to go.
Once a man starts armed robbing he has crossed a line most won't. Don't forget that when you are looking these bastards in the eye. Their decision to kill you is already made. Your life means nothing to him. Only his does. His sole motivation for not killing you is he doesn't want a murder case. He has already accepted he may pick one up though.
We hunt hold up men around the clock once they are identified. We send teams of fire breathing fence jumper/door kickers to find them. We will bring their mother to the office and convince her she is going to jail if we don't have Junior in our office in an hour. We have her call her son crying hysterically for him to turn himself in before she is arrested and held without bond as a material witness and her home seized for harboring him. Most of the time they won't. **** their own momma.
We will hit all Juniors friends and family's houses. We make it so no one will harbor him. He is so hot no one will let him in their house or even talk on the phone with him. We put money on him so he knows he is right to be betrayed and set up. We do this because of one thing.
That thing is they WILL kill someone if they keep robbing. That is why the city is willing to pay all the overtime. They don't want the murders. Think about that when you see Junior coming. The more robberies he does the closer he is to killing someone. Maybe you.
The guys who hit you on the street are gang members. They are Gangster Disciples, Vice Lords, Crips, Sureonos, many others. They do not see themselves as part of society. The street is all they know. They don't expect to live long or stay out of prison. They take a delight in your fear and suffering. They are warped individuals for the most part. They can be extremely dangerous.
One time we were locking up a hold up man and having a conversation about how they target their victims. I was saying they pick easy ones, another guy was saying they preferred easy ones but would take anybody.
I pointed out a uniform Officer there was an NFL size guy to that hold up man. Frankly the dude was a monster. I asked hold up man if he would rob him. He said, "If I needed the money".
You
Chances are good you are a law abiding person except for maybe a little light weed smoking and maybe driving a little drunk every once in a while. Most of your life you have been taught to be nice and don't point guns at people. You are the exact opposite of your enemy who was taught just the opposite. Remember a lot of street life is like prison life. Who's the man is everything. Violence is the currency of the street.
You do not possess total disregard for the lives of others and do not want to kill anyone. You are concerned about the ramifications of shooting someone. Your family, your possessions and finances on the line. Your enemy has none of these concerns.
The laws that keep you from carrying your gun in bars or where ever mean nothing to your enemy. Your reluctance to shoot someone works to his advantage. His greater experience in street violence and the element of surprise is on his side.
Everyone should call their local FBI office and get a copy of Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted. When it first came out it was ground breaking because it demonstrated to academics and other elites what street police knew all along. What did it show in interviews with cop killers? Nice guys finish dead. That's right. Most of those offenders commented that the Officer they killed set himself up to be killed because of reluctance to use force early in the encounter.
You can probably find it on line now. A lot of the victim Officers were a lot like a lot of other people, normal people. They were the opposite of their enemy.
Am I advocating becoming the enemy? No. I am saying the person who is robbing you has certain traits, attitudes, and background. That is all.
Dynamics of Encounters
Hold up men target victims on the street in an impulsive, opportunistic manner. They see someone and make a quick judgment call on whether to rob them. The time between when you are targeted and they are on you isn't long. Therefore, situational awareness is everything.
If you see G coming you are in good shape. If you don't you will be the victim who says, "He came out of nowhere". No he didn't. There are many tricks to watching out but simply watching your back is the main thing. Watch your back. If you do it enough it becomes second nature and you won't even realize you are doing it.
Watching out is great but unfortunately many self-defense courses stop there. You have parked you car in a well lit area, are aware of your surroundings, and looky here, here comes three guys across the parking lot and they start to kind of fan out.
When you lock eyes with G the very first thing you need to do it indicate you have a weapon. It doesn't matter if you do or not. If you are a woman put your gun hand in your purse and keep it there. If you are a man fan your shirt or coattail with your gun hand. Make it clear to dude you are mentally prepared to draw and making sure your gun is clear. This will many times result in an about face by dude. It is the single best robbery avoidance tactic IMHO.
Not long ago I was walking down the sidewalk in my town to go get my car. I was holding a folding chair in my gun hand. A car slow rolled past me with 4 heads in it. The guys in the back seat turned around as they went by looking at me. They went a little farther and U turned in the street.
Here they come back. As they started to slow down I looked at them with as contemptuous a look as I could muster and switched the chair to my left hand and flicked my shirttail with my right hand. They just drove on mad dogging me.
In another case I was at a Christmas party and walked a girl to her car about 3 am. As we said our good-byes two guys were walking across the parking lot. One went behind a dumpster. I though he was peeing. He came out from behind the dumpster with a bottle.
As they got closer I stepped clear of that girl and unzipped my jacket at those two guys. When I did the guy threw down the bottle and they walked by cussing at me. If someone challenges you after you indicate you are armed say, "I don't have a gun". Then they will know you do.
Here is an opposite story. A girl my brother knows was walking her dog when a guy approached her. She was polite. Mistake. He talked to her about the dog and said she had pretty hair and reached out and touched her hair. She did not slap his hand down or aggressively object. Mistake. He asked her if her dog bit and she said "No". At that time he slapped the shit out of her, drug her into a wooded area, and raped her.
The answer in the street is always "No". Can I ask you something? No. Do you have a cigarette? No. Can you tell me what time it is? No. The answer is always "No". Don't be nice. Stop the encounter as soon as it starts.
When to draw
Despite warnings I often see on the Net I have yet to encounter an instance in which a hold up man called the police to report his intended victim threatened to shoot him. Thugs do not want to come into contact with the police. They may already be wanted or realize chances are good they have been identified in a recent robbery. Or what ever. They are not going to call the police if you draw on them.
Supposed two guys are approaching you in a parking lot and do the classic fan out maneuver. You indicate you have a weapon by clearing your gun hand and fanning your jacket at them. They are not discouraged. DRAW!
I am not saying you should pull your gun out, assume a Weaver stance, and scream "That's close enough mother****ers!" What I am saying is draw your gun and hold it beside your leg as you start to move to cover. I am very fond of telephone poles. Anything will do though. They will see this. They will remember they have to be somewhere else. They will not call the police.
Then you can just put your gun back in the holster and go back to whatever you were doing like nothing happened. Why? Because nothing did happen. A happening is when shots are fired.
Do not hesitate to draw. If you are somewhere you are supposed to be and someone appears who is not supposed to be there like a closed business show him the end of your gun. Could it be Mother Teresa looking for her lost cat behind your closed business? No it is some mother****er up to no good. He won't call the police to report he was prowling a location when a guy ran him off.
When to shoot
The time to shoot is immediately upon seeing his weapon. You are not a policeman who has to try to arrest the guy. No need to scream at him. No exposure while you yell for him to drop the gun.
In deer hunting the experienced hunter takes the first good shot. May not be the perfect shot but it never is. Novices pass up a doable shot waiting for a better shot and then the deer is gone. Take the first good shot you are offered. Hopefully your alertness and hostile cues will prevent you ever having to fire. But once you see his weapon, shoot.
If a guy is coming at you with a gun in his hand shoot him. Shoot him right then. If you don't shoot first you may not shoot at all. I have known more than one person who was shot and received life changing injuries and also shot their attacker. Their only regret was not shooting sooner. Like Bill Jordan said "Nothing disturbs your enemy's aim like a slug delivered to the belt buckle area".
Guns and weapons
The handgun is the best weapon you can carry easily. I understand it is not always possible to have one due to laws, restrictions, whatever. I am not telling anyone to disregard laws about carrying weapons. Each person has to decide for themselves what they are comfortable with. I will say there is no substitute for a pistol when you need one.
Also if you cannot be trusted with a pistol after a few drinks you can't be trusted with a pistol period. Booze is liquid bad judgment no doubt but it shouldn't make you into a damn moron. If you are a moron sober I don't know what to tell you.
Types of guns and ammo are always debated and probably always will be. I have seen people shot with all common calibers. My conclusion is if you hit someone between the collarbone and the tip of their ribs three times with anything, they are handled. Bigger is better but something is better than nothing. Get your front sight on his shirt and stay on him as long as he is standing with whatever gun you have.
Just have a gun with sure-fire ammo. Draw early and fire immediately upon seeing his weapon. That course of action is about all you can do to up your odds of ending things favorably. Guns like the Ruger LC9, SIG 239, and Glock 26/27 are examples of guns small enough to carry but with enough power and capacity to be useful. Do not be afraid to use a French Lebelle if that is the only gun you have. A gun is a gun. I like a Glock 19.
Training
We all want the best training. It can be expensive if you have to pay for it and it can be hard to find the time to do it. There is a whole lot of BS out there. What can you do? First, pistol handling is not rocket surgery. If you will learn the basics and practice on your own you can be fine. Smooth draw, quick pairs, reload. If you know those things well you can be OK.
I know a young man who shot down two hold up men in 2010 at very close range while he and his GF were walking home from the store. He in Wyatt Earp like fashion ignored the fire coming from the gunman and killed him and wounded his accomplice. Neither he nor his GF were injured. He like many was willing to give them the money until he picked up on nonverbal cues that because of his GF they were not quite satisfied with the money. He had a Glock 27.
He had only the most basic of training in gun handling but did do some draws and some dry fire a couple times a week and live fired maybe once a month. That basic skill combined with knowing what to do was enough. He shot at the first possible moment despite having let the guys get the drop on them. When the gunman turned his head because a car drove by that was the opening. A split second is a long time sometimes.
Work on some one hand shooting at close range. That is a skill not as popular as it once was and you want to use two hands when you can. Often you can find yourself doing something with your off hand though so be able to shoot with one hand out to 5 yards or so.
After
If it comes to pass you are forced to shoot someone do not feel bad. When the police come just tell them a guy threatened you with deadly force and you were forced to fire. I know there are bad police out there in some parts of the country who don't support self-defense. I can't help you with that.
Do not talk to them until you have your attorney present. Now most young guys don't have an attorney on retainer and you may have no idea who to call. That is OK. You will figure it out but in the mean time don't talk about what happened other than to say you were forced to fire. You don't have to be an ******* just remember wait for your attorney.
Hopefully you will not give a statement for a couple days. Remember if you are put in jail that doesn't mean you are charged. Most places can hold you 48 or 72 hours on a felony before charging you or letting you go. Breathe deep and get an attorney.
Expect to never get your gun back. You may get it back one day but maybe not. Do not buy expensive guns for the street. Buy yourself a nice sporting gun if you want a nice gun. Keep your street guns basic. The factory Model 10 Smith and the GI 45 have done a lot of work over the years and aren't fancy.
Worlds
We all live in different worlds. My world is filled with felons and gang members. Violence is commonplace. No one would be surprised if one of their friends called and said they shot a hold up man at a place of business or parking lot. In the past when I made calls the fact that the guy who is beating his GF is also on parole for 2nd degree murder flavored my world.
You may live in a smaller, less violent place where shootings seldom occur and it would be a rare to shoot a hold up man. I envy you and will be moving to a place like your town as soon as I can.
But be advised no matter where you are a hold man is going to be about the same. Whether he is a homeboy or a guy who just exited the interstate into your town and needs some quick money. He is going to have a vicious streak and no regard for your life. Treat him like he treats you.
Giving them the money, doing what they say, all that may work but there is no guarantee. If you have never read Jeff Cooper's book The Principles of Personal Defense I suggest you order a copy immediately. It is a short book but summarizes a lot of important things.
Last year we had a trial here regarding an armed robbery that occurred. Three or four guys took a young couple from a parking garage near a college out by some railroad tracks where they raped, shot, and beat them. Their lives will never be the same.
The lesser thugs all turned on the triggerman at trial. The triggerman's statement in the paper was after all that had happened he felt like he was a victim. Think about that. That is the mindset you are up against.
Lately in GD we have had two different board members find them selves looking down the barrel of a gun along with the GF of another ARFCOMMER in street robberies. Also Blitz308 got shot all to pieces last year.
While many say it is better to be lucky than good, no one is lucky every time. In this post I am going to attempt to provide some insight into street encounters. Other may have different viewpoints. I am not here to argue. I will say some of the comments I have seen posted in the threads about this sort of matter make me realize that while some ARFCOMMERS are clearly street veterans others are not. This is really for those who are not.
Background
First, my info. I worked in the street of one of America's most violent, dangerous cities for 15 years. I usually worked in the worst part of that city. I spent 15 years in patrol. I liked patrol. It was wild. Most of the time I worked in areas covered in ghetto. By that I mean large housing projects combined with run down slum housing. I have worked all shifts. Later I became an investigator including a robbery investigator. I have spent countless hours in interrogation rooms talking to hold up men. I know them. I am still an investigator but have quit playing the Robbery game because my family was starting to forget what I looked like.
The Enemy
Some may object to me calling hold up men "the enemy". You can call them whatever you like. I can assure you however they are as deadly an enemy as you will find anywhere but the battlefield. Even many soldiers probably lack the viciousness and utter disregard for life most hold up men possess.
No one wakes up in the morning one day and decides to become an armed robber. It is a gradual process that requires some experience and desensitizing. Before a man will pick up a gun and threaten to kill people who have done him no harm in order to get their usually meager possessions he has to get comfortable with some things.
He has to get used to seeing others as objects for him to exploit. He has to accept he may be killed while robbing. He has to accept the felony conviction for Robbery will haunt him all his life. He has to accept he may need to kill a completely innocent person to get away with his crime.
This is a process that starts with stealing candy at the corner store as a child. It progresses through bigger property crimes that may also involve violence. But one day G gets tired of selling his stolen property for nothing and decides it would be better to steal cash. Cut out all that tiresome sales stuff.
Keep in mind many petty thieves, auto burglars, residential and commercial burglars, paper thieves, and hustlers will get to that point and decide not to become armed robbers. Most will. It is a special group of outliers who decide threatening to kill people for a few dollars is the way to go.
Once a man starts armed robbing he has crossed a line most won't. Don't forget that when you are looking these bastards in the eye. Their decision to kill you is already made. Your life means nothing to him. Only his does. His sole motivation for not killing you is he doesn't want a murder case. He has already accepted he may pick one up though.
We hunt hold up men around the clock once they are identified. We send teams of fire breathing fence jumper/door kickers to find them. We will bring their mother to the office and convince her she is going to jail if we don't have Junior in our office in an hour. We have her call her son crying hysterically for him to turn himself in before she is arrested and held without bond as a material witness and her home seized for harboring him. Most of the time they won't. **** their own momma.
We will hit all Juniors friends and family's houses. We make it so no one will harbor him. He is so hot no one will let him in their house or even talk on the phone with him. We put money on him so he knows he is right to be betrayed and set up. We do this because of one thing.
That thing is they WILL kill someone if they keep robbing. That is why the city is willing to pay all the overtime. They don't want the murders. Think about that when you see Junior coming. The more robberies he does the closer he is to killing someone. Maybe you.
The guys who hit you on the street are gang members. They are Gangster Disciples, Vice Lords, Crips, Sureonos, many others. They do not see themselves as part of society. The street is all they know. They don't expect to live long or stay out of prison. They take a delight in your fear and suffering. They are warped individuals for the most part. They can be extremely dangerous.
One time we were locking up a hold up man and having a conversation about how they target their victims. I was saying they pick easy ones, another guy was saying they preferred easy ones but would take anybody.
I pointed out a uniform Officer there was an NFL size guy to that hold up man. Frankly the dude was a monster. I asked hold up man if he would rob him. He said, "If I needed the money".
You
Chances are good you are a law abiding person except for maybe a little light weed smoking and maybe driving a little drunk every once in a while. Most of your life you have been taught to be nice and don't point guns at people. You are the exact opposite of your enemy who was taught just the opposite. Remember a lot of street life is like prison life. Who's the man is everything. Violence is the currency of the street.
You do not possess total disregard for the lives of others and do not want to kill anyone. You are concerned about the ramifications of shooting someone. Your family, your possessions and finances on the line. Your enemy has none of these concerns.
The laws that keep you from carrying your gun in bars or where ever mean nothing to your enemy. Your reluctance to shoot someone works to his advantage. His greater experience in street violence and the element of surprise is on his side.
Everyone should call their local FBI office and get a copy of Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted. When it first came out it was ground breaking because it demonstrated to academics and other elites what street police knew all along. What did it show in interviews with cop killers? Nice guys finish dead. That's right. Most of those offenders commented that the Officer they killed set himself up to be killed because of reluctance to use force early in the encounter.
You can probably find it on line now. A lot of the victim Officers were a lot like a lot of other people, normal people. They were the opposite of their enemy.
Am I advocating becoming the enemy? No. I am saying the person who is robbing you has certain traits, attitudes, and background. That is all.
Dynamics of Encounters
Hold up men target victims on the street in an impulsive, opportunistic manner. They see someone and make a quick judgment call on whether to rob them. The time between when you are targeted and they are on you isn't long. Therefore, situational awareness is everything.
If you see G coming you are in good shape. If you don't you will be the victim who says, "He came out of nowhere". No he didn't. There are many tricks to watching out but simply watching your back is the main thing. Watch your back. If you do it enough it becomes second nature and you won't even realize you are doing it.
Watching out is great but unfortunately many self-defense courses stop there. You have parked you car in a well lit area, are aware of your surroundings, and looky here, here comes three guys across the parking lot and they start to kind of fan out.
When you lock eyes with G the very first thing you need to do it indicate you have a weapon. It doesn't matter if you do or not. If you are a woman put your gun hand in your purse and keep it there. If you are a man fan your shirt or coattail with your gun hand. Make it clear to dude you are mentally prepared to draw and making sure your gun is clear. This will many times result in an about face by dude. It is the single best robbery avoidance tactic IMHO.
Not long ago I was walking down the sidewalk in my town to go get my car. I was holding a folding chair in my gun hand. A car slow rolled past me with 4 heads in it. The guys in the back seat turned around as they went by looking at me. They went a little farther and U turned in the street.
Here they come back. As they started to slow down I looked at them with as contemptuous a look as I could muster and switched the chair to my left hand and flicked my shirttail with my right hand. They just drove on mad dogging me.
In another case I was at a Christmas party and walked a girl to her car about 3 am. As we said our good-byes two guys were walking across the parking lot. One went behind a dumpster. I though he was peeing. He came out from behind the dumpster with a bottle.
As they got closer I stepped clear of that girl and unzipped my jacket at those two guys. When I did the guy threw down the bottle and they walked by cussing at me. If someone challenges you after you indicate you are armed say, "I don't have a gun". Then they will know you do.
Here is an opposite story. A girl my brother knows was walking her dog when a guy approached her. She was polite. Mistake. He talked to her about the dog and said she had pretty hair and reached out and touched her hair. She did not slap his hand down or aggressively object. Mistake. He asked her if her dog bit and she said "No". At that time he slapped the shit out of her, drug her into a wooded area, and raped her.
The answer in the street is always "No". Can I ask you something? No. Do you have a cigarette? No. Can you tell me what time it is? No. The answer is always "No". Don't be nice. Stop the encounter as soon as it starts.
When to draw
Despite warnings I often see on the Net I have yet to encounter an instance in which a hold up man called the police to report his intended victim threatened to shoot him. Thugs do not want to come into contact with the police. They may already be wanted or realize chances are good they have been identified in a recent robbery. Or what ever. They are not going to call the police if you draw on them.
Supposed two guys are approaching you in a parking lot and do the classic fan out maneuver. You indicate you have a weapon by clearing your gun hand and fanning your jacket at them. They are not discouraged. DRAW!
I am not saying you should pull your gun out, assume a Weaver stance, and scream "That's close enough mother****ers!" What I am saying is draw your gun and hold it beside your leg as you start to move to cover. I am very fond of telephone poles. Anything will do though. They will see this. They will remember they have to be somewhere else. They will not call the police.
Then you can just put your gun back in the holster and go back to whatever you were doing like nothing happened. Why? Because nothing did happen. A happening is when shots are fired.
Do not hesitate to draw. If you are somewhere you are supposed to be and someone appears who is not supposed to be there like a closed business show him the end of your gun. Could it be Mother Teresa looking for her lost cat behind your closed business? No it is some mother****er up to no good. He won't call the police to report he was prowling a location when a guy ran him off.
When to shoot
The time to shoot is immediately upon seeing his weapon. You are not a policeman who has to try to arrest the guy. No need to scream at him. No exposure while you yell for him to drop the gun.
In deer hunting the experienced hunter takes the first good shot. May not be the perfect shot but it never is. Novices pass up a doable shot waiting for a better shot and then the deer is gone. Take the first good shot you are offered. Hopefully your alertness and hostile cues will prevent you ever having to fire. But once you see his weapon, shoot.
If a guy is coming at you with a gun in his hand shoot him. Shoot him right then. If you don't shoot first you may not shoot at all. I have known more than one person who was shot and received life changing injuries and also shot their attacker. Their only regret was not shooting sooner. Like Bill Jordan said "Nothing disturbs your enemy's aim like a slug delivered to the belt buckle area".
Guns and weapons
The handgun is the best weapon you can carry easily. I understand it is not always possible to have one due to laws, restrictions, whatever. I am not telling anyone to disregard laws about carrying weapons. Each person has to decide for themselves what they are comfortable with. I will say there is no substitute for a pistol when you need one.
Also if you cannot be trusted with a pistol after a few drinks you can't be trusted with a pistol period. Booze is liquid bad judgment no doubt but it shouldn't make you into a damn moron. If you are a moron sober I don't know what to tell you.
Types of guns and ammo are always debated and probably always will be. I have seen people shot with all common calibers. My conclusion is if you hit someone between the collarbone and the tip of their ribs three times with anything, they are handled. Bigger is better but something is better than nothing. Get your front sight on his shirt and stay on him as long as he is standing with whatever gun you have.
Just have a gun with sure-fire ammo. Draw early and fire immediately upon seeing his weapon. That course of action is about all you can do to up your odds of ending things favorably. Guns like the Ruger LC9, SIG 239, and Glock 26/27 are examples of guns small enough to carry but with enough power and capacity to be useful. Do not be afraid to use a French Lebelle if that is the only gun you have. A gun is a gun. I like a Glock 19.
Training
We all want the best training. It can be expensive if you have to pay for it and it can be hard to find the time to do it. There is a whole lot of BS out there. What can you do? First, pistol handling is not rocket surgery. If you will learn the basics and practice on your own you can be fine. Smooth draw, quick pairs, reload. If you know those things well you can be OK.
I know a young man who shot down two hold up men in 2010 at very close range while he and his GF were walking home from the store. He in Wyatt Earp like fashion ignored the fire coming from the gunman and killed him and wounded his accomplice. Neither he nor his GF were injured. He like many was willing to give them the money until he picked up on nonverbal cues that because of his GF they were not quite satisfied with the money. He had a Glock 27.
He had only the most basic of training in gun handling but did do some draws and some dry fire a couple times a week and live fired maybe once a month. That basic skill combined with knowing what to do was enough. He shot at the first possible moment despite having let the guys get the drop on them. When the gunman turned his head because a car drove by that was the opening. A split second is a long time sometimes.
Work on some one hand shooting at close range. That is a skill not as popular as it once was and you want to use two hands when you can. Often you can find yourself doing something with your off hand though so be able to shoot with one hand out to 5 yards or so.
After
If it comes to pass you are forced to shoot someone do not feel bad. When the police come just tell them a guy threatened you with deadly force and you were forced to fire. I know there are bad police out there in some parts of the country who don't support self-defense. I can't help you with that.
Do not talk to them until you have your attorney present. Now most young guys don't have an attorney on retainer and you may have no idea who to call. That is OK. You will figure it out but in the mean time don't talk about what happened other than to say you were forced to fire. You don't have to be an ******* just remember wait for your attorney.
Hopefully you will not give a statement for a couple days. Remember if you are put in jail that doesn't mean you are charged. Most places can hold you 48 or 72 hours on a felony before charging you or letting you go. Breathe deep and get an attorney.
Expect to never get your gun back. You may get it back one day but maybe not. Do not buy expensive guns for the street. Buy yourself a nice sporting gun if you want a nice gun. Keep your street guns basic. The factory Model 10 Smith and the GI 45 have done a lot of work over the years and aren't fancy.
Worlds
We all live in different worlds. My world is filled with felons and gang members. Violence is commonplace. No one would be surprised if one of their friends called and said they shot a hold up man at a place of business or parking lot. In the past when I made calls the fact that the guy who is beating his GF is also on parole for 2nd degree murder flavored my world.
You may live in a smaller, less violent place where shootings seldom occur and it would be a rare to shoot a hold up man. I envy you and will be moving to a place like your town as soon as I can.
But be advised no matter where you are a hold man is going to be about the same. Whether he is a homeboy or a guy who just exited the interstate into your town and needs some quick money. He is going to have a vicious streak and no regard for your life. Treat him like he treats you.
Giving them the money, doing what they say, all that may work but there is no guarantee. If you have never read Jeff Cooper's book The Principles of Personal Defense I suggest you order a copy immediately. It is a short book but summarizes a lot of important things.
Last year we had a trial here regarding an armed robbery that occurred. Three or four guys took a young couple from a parking garage near a college out by some railroad tracks where they raped, shot, and beat them. Their lives will never be the same.
The lesser thugs all turned on the triggerman at trial. The triggerman's statement in the paper was after all that had happened he felt like he was a victim. Think about that. That is the mindset you are up against.
I never said brandishing was against the law specifically (although in many states it is). What i did was quote, and link to, what the law said was required in order to lawfully use deadly force. I'm just pointing out that threatening someone with a gun before you are lawfully allowed to use it, is probably a bad idea no matter how you look at it. Legally and otherwise- and yes i would think to threaten someone with a gun you're not lawfully allowed to use on said person would probably be considered unlawful (and bad tactics too).
But i think lots of people are trying to connect not brandishing with getting killed. Running with getting killed. I never suggested anyone let the BG kill them. If you are afraid for your life, pull the gun, dont brandish it!! If not, dont use the gun, and beat feet or try to avoid the situation in some other way. The law i cited and linked to specifically addresses this too:
"A person cannot lawfully act in self-defense unless he or she has exhausted all other reasonable
alternatives before resorting to force. A person may use physical force in self-defense only if he (she) could not get out of the situation in some other way that was available and reasonable at the time. The Commonwealth may prove the defendant did not act in self-defense by proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant resorted to force without using avenues of escape that were reasonably available and which would not have exposed the defendant to further danger."
So following the law doesnt necessarily make you less safe. If if it makes you less safe, dont do it! I'm not suggesting anyone sacrifice their safety to follow the law, nor does the law require it from what i see.
I really dont understand this whole idea that its possible that if you dont brandish a firearm you could be killed. If you're worried about being killed then pull the gun. If you're not worried about getting killed, why make the argument that you're going to be killed? I dont get it.
sure i'd rather be convicted of homicide than be dead, but like i've been trying to stress. If your worried about getting killed, pull your gun! Dont just brandish it. I'm not suggesting for anyone to roll over and die here......
If you guys are aware of the laws and the risks associated then do what you want. I'm not trying to tell anyone how to live their lives. I just think being aware of what the state requires before using deadly force is good to know.
But i think lots of people are trying to connect not brandishing with getting killed. Running with getting killed. I never suggested anyone let the BG kill them. If you are afraid for your life, pull the gun, dont brandish it!! If not, dont use the gun, and beat feet or try to avoid the situation in some other way. The law i cited and linked to specifically addresses this too:
"A person cannot lawfully act in self-defense unless he or she has exhausted all other reasonable
alternatives before resorting to force. A person may use physical force in self-defense only if he (she) could not get out of the situation in some other way that was available and reasonable at the time. The Commonwealth may prove the defendant did not act in self-defense by proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant resorted to force without using avenues of escape that were reasonably available and which would not have exposed the defendant to further danger."
So following the law doesnt necessarily make you less safe. If if it makes you less safe, dont do it! I'm not suggesting anyone sacrifice their safety to follow the law, nor does the law require it from what i see.
I really dont understand this whole idea that its possible that if you dont brandish a firearm you could be killed. If you're worried about being killed then pull the gun. If you're not worried about getting killed, why make the argument that you're going to be killed? I dont get it.
sure i'd rather be convicted of homicide than be dead, but like i've been trying to stress. If your worried about getting killed, pull your gun! Dont just brandish it. I'm not suggesting for anyone to roll over and die here......
If you guys are aware of the laws and the risks associated then do what you want. I'm not trying to tell anyone how to live their lives. I just think being aware of what the state requires before using deadly force is good to know.
If you putting that hand on the back strap or drawing your prepared to use it, and in doing do you are doing so as a preemtory action to head off a more serious threat. Criminals don't practice at the range. Just having the playing field leveled in the event of a gun will most likely cause them to retreat, not shoot. Worst case you get in to a shoot out and guess what cops show up and you have a robber assaulted and the intended victim. What's the problem here? Those looking to commit these crimes are NOT looking for resistance or a fight. I'll take my chances playing it safe drawing or putting my hand in the blackstrap getting prepared before my life is in imminent danger and is too late to control the situation from a distance.
As I said before do I wait until 8 guys with bats and pipes are in me for them to show their intent? Or at 30-40' do I start getting my shirt and hand moving in the event they come closer? I'll keep that kind of distance any day ESPECIALLY when you have multiple attackers as the op brother faced. He made the right call if it kept them safe and no one was victimized.
As I said before do I wait until 8 guys with bats and pipes are in me for them to show their intent? Or at 30-40' do I start getting my shirt and hand moving in the event they come closer? I'll keep that kind of distance any day ESPECIALLY when you have multiple attackers as the op brother faced. He made the right call if it kept them safe and no one was victimized.
bigtig50
NES Member
bigtig50
NES Member
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D
Deleted member 12999
How did they even see the glock when he lifted up his shirt? I heard on The View that Glocks were invisible
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what? we watch it together holding hands and sipping mimosas. don't judge.
my one issue and monday morning quarterback comment is that he lifted his shirt to display the firearm with his back turned to these guys? **** that. i wouldn't turn my back on these individuals if it looked like they were sizing me up to **** me up. i'm not a big dude, and i know i can't draw super fast like a cowboy--so i am not going to count on being able to turn all the way around AND draw my firearm if shit jumps off.
my one issue with the thread is that there are a lot of shitty posts in here. i'm sure you all know which ones they are. if you're confused by my comment though--they are probably your posts.
From what I understood and the way my brother explained it was..he first gave his wife alittle nudge to walk in front of him then lifted his shirt and kept walking with his head turned slightly back as to keep them in his peripheral vision once he saw them turn back around he took another full glance back to make sure then picked up the pace to their car.
good, turning his back on them would have been very un-smart.
"yeah, i have a gun. it's facing you. i'm turned around, and there are four of you."
either way that is not a position i'd want to be in. you'd have to decide real quick if you were going to start shooting if you got rushed by four guys. depending on how determined they are you might not drop them all in time. most likely the odds are that at least one of them will get way too close or on you.
"yeah, i have a gun. it's facing you. i'm turned around, and there are four of you."
either way that is not a position i'd want to be in. you'd have to decide real quick if you were going to start shooting if you got rushed by four guys. depending on how determined they are you might not drop them all in time. most likely the odds are that at least one of them will get way too close or on you.
Nothing is perfect, but one would hope that if after the bullets start flying, the odds get evened out a bit. Also, my wife is probably safe at that point if she does what we have planned and keeps running. I know not everyone in this thread means or thinks this way, but carrying a gun is not some kind of whose dick is bigger contest. And sometimes I get that impression from some folks who carry weapons. Before I carried a gun, I carried a couple different kinds of weapons on my walks through the rougher parts of the city while I was in law school. I had occasion to have to take some of them out when threatened. I was lucky it never escalated beyond that. Several of those situations would have been dicey despite my being armed.
