-
If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership The benefits pay for the membership many times over.
Lucky my brother carries.
- Thread starter Wicked1911
- Start date
![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
Do you think the 4 guys would have said "Hang on a sec, lets rethink this" if the OP's brother said "Hey guys I don't want any trouble, now excuse me while I run in the other direction" like jason6 recommends?
I've always suspected that the textbook advice along the lines of "the only time someone should see your gun is as you are drawing it to unload in their chest because they present a clear immediate threat" is something that was conjured up by the likes of lawyers. There are countless reports of incidents, like the one in this thread, that seem to indicate to me that that advice is just not grounded in reality. It may not be bad advice from a legal standpoint, but it just seems like it does not actually correspond with how guns are often - successfully - used defensively.
That may have worked, or it may have just told the mini-gang that you were likely to be easy prey. Can't really judge, since I wasn't there and there are a lot of things that figure into how people react.
My general rule is if you don't want to get eaten, don't look like food.
![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
Have you ever been in a street fight? Robbed? I think the OP's brother handled it correctly. I have been in street fights, even jumped by 5 people once. I tried to talk myself out of the situation, know what it got me? Getting beat up with a tire iron and a baseball bat. So they could steal my wallet and have fun beating on a kid. Unlike what your momma told you violence does solve everything.
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2010
- Messages
- 6,920
- Likes
- 615
Yep, even though I understand the other guy's points, what you say here is more how it needs to be in the real world because bad guys who are already in a violent mindset are not easily deescalated by some "leave us alone" talk, or beating feet. Violent intent in the real world is way different than what we see portrayed in movies/tv, and until you have experienced it in real life you can't assume that just talking them down or running away will fix things. Body language (how you carry yourself) and even how you dress can play a huge part in whether you are perceived as prey, or someone that is better left alone.
Rivers of Blood
Banned
Glad they're okay. Boston is a shithole. I was just having a conversation with a lady friend who's partying at clubs in Boston. I'm like, not even my knife is legal there. What a joke. Stay safe everyone.
Yea and the North Shore isn't? I wouldn't be surprised when most of the muggers who commit crimes downtown don't live in the city, they hop on the T from who knows where.
Rivers of Blood
Banned
I live in Boston, take the T all the time at night etc. and I can only carry pepper spray ![[angry]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/008.gif "Angry [angry]")
. I am jealous of the green towners who can carry where I live while I can't lol. Glad it turned out ok.
. I am jealous of the green towners who can carry where I live while I can't lol. Glad it turned out ok.
OP, great post and thanks for sharing! Also, most of the replies from the member community are supportive and sensible- exactly why I was happy to recently go 'green'. Plus others sharing their experiences makes this thread bit like our own local 'Armed Citizen'.
Love the comment, 'If you don't want to get eaten, don't look like food.' Usually, the animals like the ones pursuing the OP's brother are looking for an opportunity with high payout and low risk. Flashing the CCW changed the equation & ended the situation.
IMO, with these types of animals running only makes you look like food- or at the least leaves your date in heels behind to fend for herself as others have mentioned. Like others, I'm also getting too damn old to run.
For those who say in this case it only allowed the perps to move on to someone else later- at least in this case an attack was averted. Imagine the drop in such crime if all law abiding citizens were prepared to defend themselves in such a manner.
My only 20/20 hindsight comment would be that one should quickly assess if the situation is bad enough to flash, it might be bad enough to draw- especially with multiple attackers. Can't say whether or not flashing and placing your grip (ready for draw) would escalate the situation in case the perps were armed. IMO the OP's bro, sets a good example in this case.
Love the comment, 'If you don't want to get eaten, don't look like food.' Usually, the animals like the ones pursuing the OP's brother are looking for an opportunity with high payout and low risk. Flashing the CCW changed the equation & ended the situation.
IMO, with these types of animals running only makes you look like food- or at the least leaves your date in heels behind to fend for herself as others have mentioned. Like others, I'm also getting too damn old to run.
For those who say in this case it only allowed the perps to move on to someone else later- at least in this case an attack was averted. Imagine the drop in such crime if all law abiding citizens were prepared to defend themselves in such a manner.
My only 20/20 hindsight comment would be that one should quickly assess if the situation is bad enough to flash, it might be bad enough to draw- especially with multiple attackers. Can't say whether or not flashing and placing your grip (ready for draw) would escalate the situation in case the perps were armed. IMO the OP's bro, sets a good example in this case.
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2010
- Messages
- 774
- Likes
- 232
I live in Boston, take the T all the time at night etc. and I can only carry pepper spray
Concealed means concealed.
No, some parts are pretty bad, but the population isn't what it is in Boston. I was picking up my friend from a bar last night (which I said is a dumb idea anyways) and she told me that 3 guys asked her if she needed a ride home as she waited for me. WTF? I avoid Boston like the plague, but if it's between creepy guys, a cab, or me driving at 1am... I'm going to the hell that is Bawwwston kehd.
+1
It is what it is. We live in MA. We dont have stand your ground laws outside of your home, and we dont have laws so that the family cant sue your brains out when you shoot someone defending yourself.
Whether someone is right or wrong in this situation you would go broke defending yourself in court. Like my original post said. Its just a matter of positioning yourself to make it thoroughly obvious there was a threat to you and you were justified in using force. If you brandish a gun in the situation before the law says you can shoot someone, then it could be argued that you contributed to the situation and you are therefor liable.
Obviously if you're a paraplegic (or whatever) and cant beat feat then skip that part. The whole point is you TRY, you can still show that you did whatever you humanly could to avoid and diffuse the situation. Verbally communicating with them would still give you a good idea of their intentions without beating feet. Obviously i'm not suggesting that everyone train to be a track star so you can run away from trouble and they'll never catch you. The whole idea of taking off is to position yourself for having to defend yourself by shooting the BG. Even crossing the street and seeing if they follow you, like someone said, would give you more idea of their intentions. Its the same idea.
A couple people said you can't second guess people or you don't know what its like until you're there.....well neither can a judge or jury guys, or even the responding officers, and they WILL be second guessing you! If i had no choice but to take someones life, i'd want the evidence to be really damn clear that i had no other choice and i did everything i could do to avoid the situation, including running away. Running away and the BG chasing you makes it really obvious to anyone there was a direct and obvious threat. And keep in mind the law says you have to flee. You can't say, "sorry officer i cant flee because my wife is wearing high heels" or "i'm too fat" or whatever. The law says you have to try, the law doesnt say you have to run faster and get away, but you do have to try. So why brandish a gun before fleeing? If you have to flee anyways, why do it? To save yourself from getting winded? To save the wifes high heels? If they chase after you, gain on you, to where you feel you have no other choice, turn and pull.
and if the BG's are so close as to you cant run, how is brandishing going to help you at all? Couldnt they just jump on you, and take the gun? If they're not close enough to take the gun then they're still at a distance to try to flee IMO.
I know staying safe is the number 1 goal. But i'd rather be safe and position myself to keep my house and not go broke.
Whether someone is right or wrong in this situation you would go broke defending yourself in court. Like my original post said. Its just a matter of positioning yourself to make it thoroughly obvious there was a threat to you and you were justified in using force. If you brandish a gun in the situation before the law says you can shoot someone, then it could be argued that you contributed to the situation and you are therefor liable.
Obviously if you're a paraplegic (or whatever) and cant beat feat then skip that part. The whole point is you TRY, you can still show that you did whatever you humanly could to avoid and diffuse the situation. Verbally communicating with them would still give you a good idea of their intentions without beating feet. Obviously i'm not suggesting that everyone train to be a track star so you can run away from trouble and they'll never catch you. The whole idea of taking off is to position yourself for having to defend yourself by shooting the BG. Even crossing the street and seeing if they follow you, like someone said, would give you more idea of their intentions. Its the same idea.
A couple people said you can't second guess people or you don't know what its like until you're there.....well neither can a judge or jury guys, or even the responding officers, and they WILL be second guessing you! If i had no choice but to take someones life, i'd want the evidence to be really damn clear that i had no other choice and i did everything i could do to avoid the situation, including running away. Running away and the BG chasing you makes it really obvious to anyone there was a direct and obvious threat. And keep in mind the law says you have to flee. You can't say, "sorry officer i cant flee because my wife is wearing high heels" or "i'm too fat" or whatever. The law says you have to try, the law doesnt say you have to run faster and get away, but you do have to try. So why brandish a gun before fleeing? If you have to flee anyways, why do it? To save yourself from getting winded? To save the wifes high heels? If they chase after you, gain on you, to where you feel you have no other choice, turn and pull.
and if the BG's are so close as to you cant run, how is brandishing going to help you at all? Couldnt they just jump on you, and take the gun? If they're not close enough to take the gun then they're still at a distance to try to flee IMO.
I know staying safe is the number 1 goal. But i'd rather be safe and position myself to keep my house and not go broke.
bigtig50
NES Member
Yeah, but if you are dead you need not worry about your house, or anything else for that matter. Once again, we all would love to imagine just how we would react to any number of situations, or how we would always do the "right" thing. Unless you have been there I call BS. I hope and pray to God my time never comes, but if it does I pray I have the wherewithal to do what needs to be done. Period. Do you truly know what you would do? Would you run, show your gun, or just stain your tightie whities.
If the defendant (used deadly force, which is force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm) (or) (used a dangerous weapon in a manner intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm), the Commonwealth must prove one of the following three things beyond a reasonable doubt:
First, that the defendant did not reasonably and actually believe that he (she) was in immediate danger of great bodily harm or death; or
Second, that the defendant did not do everything reasonable in the circumstances to avoid physical combat before resorting to force; or
Third, that the defendant used more force to defend himself (herself) than was reasonably necessary in the circumstances.
A person cannot lawfully act in self-defense unless he or she has exhausted all other reasonable
alternatives before resorting to force. A person may use physical force in self-defense only if he (she) could not get out of the situation in some other way that was available and reasonable at the time. The Commonwealth may prove the defendant did not act in self-defense by proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant resorted to force without using avenues of escape that were reasonably available and which would not have exposed the defendant to further danger.
http://www.mass.gov/courts/courtsan...s/criminal/pdf/9260-defenses-self-defense.pdf
I'm not saying i love the laws in MA at all. But they are what they are. I would not consider brandishing a weapon as your first move as, doing "everything reasonable in the circumstances to avoid physical combat before resorting to force".
And i would think that if you dont bother running for xyz reason the law in MA will pork you. Like i said before, i think the case could be made that brandishing the weapon instead of pulling it is proof in of itself that you weren't in such a threatening situation that you could not retreat.
I just think brandishing in general is a bad idea. Especially in MA.
First, that the defendant did not reasonably and actually believe that he (she) was in immediate danger of great bodily harm or death; or
Second, that the defendant did not do everything reasonable in the circumstances to avoid physical combat before resorting to force; or
Third, that the defendant used more force to defend himself (herself) than was reasonably necessary in the circumstances.
A person cannot lawfully act in self-defense unless he or she has exhausted all other reasonable
alternatives before resorting to force. A person may use physical force in self-defense only if he (she) could not get out of the situation in some other way that was available and reasonable at the time. The Commonwealth may prove the defendant did not act in self-defense by proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant resorted to force without using avenues of escape that were reasonably available and which would not have exposed the defendant to further danger.
http://www.mass.gov/courts/courtsan...s/criminal/pdf/9260-defenses-self-defense.pdf
I'm not saying i love the laws in MA at all. But they are what they are. I would not consider brandishing a weapon as your first move as, doing "everything reasonable in the circumstances to avoid physical combat before resorting to force".
And i would think that if you dont bother running for xyz reason the law in MA will pork you. Like i said before, i think the case could be made that brandishing the weapon instead of pulling it is proof in of itself that you weren't in such a threatening situation that you could not retreat.
I just think brandishing in general is a bad idea. Especially in MA.
bigtig50
NES Member
Let's just agree to disagree. I , hopefully, never leave my or my loved ones' welfare to chance and splitting hairs over legalities. I would rather do my talking in court than have others talking about me at graveside.
I could see the case for pulling the gun. If you were threatened for your life, it would be difficult to tell said person they should not be afraid. But obviously if you just brandish the gun youre not in immediate fear for your life (or great bodily injury etc etc).... So how does not brandishing end up with you getting killed? It seems obvious when a person brandishes its because they see the potential for (great bodily whatever whatever) harm, but there isnt direct threat of being harmed, as such a scenario would warrant pulling the weapon. The way i see it is brandishing is proof in of itself that the situation wasnt, at the time, directly threatening enough to cause you harm to the extent that a firearm would be lawful to use, which is why you didnt pull the gun and showed it instead. So obviously if you fear for your life, use your weapon, noones saying you shouldn't. But if you dont fear for your life (great bodily harm etc tec)... well... don't use your firearm.
Obviously i cant say for sure what i would do, but i like to think i wouldn't display a gun i wasn't ready to use.
I too hope it doesnt come for me- for you- or for any of us. But talking about it i think raises the odds that we'll act in a way to minimize the repercussions for protecting ourselves.
Maybe some people dont realize how bad the laws in MA are. I know my buddy just took a LTC course that lasted like 2 hours and he learned pretty much nothing....
I'm pretty well aware of how bad the laws are in MA, and I agree that your advice is the "correct" legal advice, but its advocating for a one size fits all approach that I think is not supported by many cases of defensive gun use that I have seen. It seems to me that the advice of "only take your gun out when you can absolutely positively shoot someone because of a clear, articulable, imminent threat" greatly increases the chances of someone getting injured because it would allow the situation to develop much further.
Even considering how shitty MA is, I think following that advice potentially offers you a better legal defense while simultaneously increasing your chances of needing a legal defense.
Last edited:
Charles,
What matters is that his brother and sister-in-law made out of there okay. Your last statement makes no sense because the courts are full of people who have preyed on victims right here in Mass. Believe it or not the police actually catch bad guys and they actually get convicted and go to prison.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2010
- Messages
- 6,920
- Likes
- 615
Well, I was thinking that goes along with what Jason6 was saying about brandishing. If you have reason enough to show it, then you have reason enough to use it. Personally speaking, if a BG ever sees my gun it will only be because he caught a quick glimpse before the flash and bang. It should inmo never be used to threaten or intimidate since there are way too many things that could go wrong, including getting your own ass shot because now YOU are the threat!
Are there guys seriously advocating for waiting until the point that comes is to shoot or be shot?
No attempt at all to de-escalate via a small show of force.
I don't know what kind of lives you guys have lived but I learned young growing up on the streets of Lawrence you could avoid many things if the other person/people know they were in a bad way.......The guys that grew up in the cities will recognize this as reality
I don't advocate walking around waving your weapon but when you feel threatened, you end it, peacefully if you can and at times that might mean you show. We can all agree, don't show if you're not prepared to use it though..
choose wisely, your life may depend upon it
No attempt at all to de-escalate via a small show of force.
I don't know what kind of lives you guys have lived but I learned young growing up on the streets of Lawrence you could avoid many things if the other person/people know they were in a bad way.......The guys that grew up in the cities will recognize this as reality
I don't advocate walking around waving your weapon but when you feel threatened, you end it, peacefully if you can and at times that might mean you show. We can all agree, don't show if you're not prepared to use it though..
choose wisely, your life may depend upon it
Last edited:
Billsail
NES Member
Some of you freak out at the the thought of "brandishing"...Oooh, it's illegal you can't do that, it's against the law! Conventional training suggests that you should pull a gun only if you are going to use it. WTF is that!!! Why can't I brandish my gun to diffuse a situation??? Nobody gets hurt, and I didn't need to kill anyone. We all walk away. I'm betting this happens dozens of times a day in this country alone! Think about it, isn't this the the preferred outcome?
Some of these laws make no sense at all. Why does this not surprise me.
I really hope something like this never happens to me.
Some of these laws make no sense at all. Why does this not surprise me.
I really hope something like this never happens to me.
That whole area just sucks. Last year I was working in the theater district bartending at one of the theaters and walking back to meet some friends two kids (maybe 20) Decided they wanted my wallet. All I did was lift my shirt and say no and they ran off. The saddest part is I was waiting for them to show back up with a cop to tell them I pulled a gun.
Billsail
NES Member
You are NOT threatening or intimidating in a situation like this. You are DEFENDING yourself, in a hopefully less than lethal way! Is this not better??
However, if push comes to shove, you do what you gotta do.
NES is turning into the biggest bunch of sheep I've ever seen. Bahhhhhh
Not to mention the safety of the op's brother's wife.
People as diverse as Kleck and Ayoob agree that everyday crimes are thwarted by the display of a firearm. Ayoob of LFI fame refers to a firearm as a threat management tool.
Brandishing in the broadest sense means waving a gun around indiscriminately. If you are worried about being busted for allowing some street punks know that you are packing, then you are beyond the pale. When people usually get jammed on brandishing charges is in heated arguments with neighbors or road rage disputes. I doubt seriously that the punks in the incident were going to run to the police, and I doubt if the potential victims reported either. Hundreds of these little encounters happen everyday in the US and are seldom reported.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Brandishing in the broadest sense means waving a gun around indiscriminately. If you are worried about being busted for allowing some street punks know that you are packing, then you are beyond the pale. When people usually get jammed on brandishing charges is in heated arguments with neighbors or road rage disputes. I doubt seriously that the punks in the incident were going to run to the police, and I doubt if the potential victims reported either. Hundreds of these little encounters happen everyday in the US and are seldom reported.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Plus 1.
