LTC w/ OUI + Previous Denial; Advice Please.

[Phil Shifley]

after lurking on 'shooters for the past week or so, i decided to join. i know this topic has been covered ad nauseum w/ plenty of info but i would still like some advice on this situation if possible.

i applied for a LTC A in a South Shore town back in '10. i told the licensing officer that i had an OUI from 2006 i received in a different state and would this preclude me from getting the LTC in MA (obviously, the out of state charge did catch up to me in MA: lost license, fines, etc.)? he said it wouldn't and to go ahead w/ the process. took class, range time, references, etc. had interview w/ him, small talk, couple jokes, going well. since i work in public safety in an adjacent city, figured everything would be OK. calls me in less than week later and denies me because he believed i was "untruthful" on app concerning incidents that happened 15+ years ago. nothing about OUI. set up another meeting w/ him to plead my case (why would i jeopardize career by lying on federal app? etc.) but fruitless. he didn't care. denied.

fast forward: have opportunity to become deputy sheriff. need LTC obviously. have since moved to another city, contacted licensing officer in new city and told him situation. he called me back and said they changed the law in '10 that any OUI after '94 is punishable by 2.5 yrs...everything i've read on this forum already (w/ exception of '10 law. didn't read that here, not sure if that's correct), he confirmed. he said i could still try, i could get a lawyer but State would probably kick it back.

i'm not sure what i should do: try to get LTC again in new city and see what happens: see if State denies it or lets it through? or would trying again after previous denial be somehow a grave mistake? would i be reprimanded somehow by the State since i already work in public sector and receive punishment? or just forget everything, accept that i will never have an LTC and move on w/ my life?

any help would be greatly appreciated.

thanks in advance.

 

[whatluck]

Lawyer up

 

[dannyac]

I have one but its a COWF and I got A LTC I might be wrong but as I know it you can get A LTC in MA with A OUI that is one one the writen laws in this great state LOL (I still had to get a lawyer)( and my oui was in 1995)

 

[Len-2A Training]

Legally depends on what the MAX PENALTY (not what they sentenced you to) on that crime in the state it happened at the time it happened. This is wrt statutory DQ.

You say they denied due to something else in your background. Can't advise on that.

Best bet is some paid time with Jesse Cohen or Keith Langer.

Best of luck.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

him situation. he called me back and said they changed the law in '10 that any OUI after '94 is punishable by 2.5 yrs

This is true of MA OUI convictions; not generally true of a non-MA first offense OUI/DUI even to this date.

The > 2 years in MA law triggers a lifetime federal prohibition on all gun/ammo possession.

calls me in less than week later and denies me because he believed i was "untruthful" on app concerning incidents that happened 15+ years ago. nothing about OUI. set up another meeting w/ him to plead my case (why would i jeopardize career by lying on federal app? etc.) but fruitless. he didn't care. denied.

#1 - it's a state application, not federal.

#2 - you make reference to the real issue for denial but mention no details about these incidents (I notice you used the plural); if they really happened; what they were and what the alleged non-disclosure is. This makes it hard for anyone to post a meaningful response.

 

[Kevlar]

...i had an OUI from 2006 i received in a different state and would this preclude me from getting the LTC in MA (obviously, the out of state charge did catch up to me in MA: lost license, fines, etc.)?...they changed the law in '10 that any OUI after '94 is punishable by 2.5 yrs...everything i've read on this forum already (w/ exception of '10 law. didn't read that here, not sure if that's correct), he confirmed. he said i could still try, i could get a lawyer but State would probably kick it back.

The law was changed in 1994 (Chapter 25 of The Acts Of 1994).

Any MA DUI conviction after 5/26/94 carries a lifetime State and Federal firearms prohibition.

The final disposition of the out-of-state case (guilty, CWOF etc.), and if it was a conviction, the maximum potential penalty, would determine your statutory eligibility in MA.

The "suitability" denial is not so black and white. I'm not sure what you mean by "...he believed i was 'untruthful' on app concerning incidents that happened 15+ years ago.", but if it concerns question 10 on the application, and you answered "no" when you should have answered "yes", you've got a tough row to hoe, IMO.

i'm not sure what i should do...

IMO, you should consult with a lawyer. Good luck!

 

[Phil Shifley]

thanks for all the replies.

to clarify some in brief: the charge was DWAI (a quick search might narrow the state in which the incident happened). this is non-criminal in corresponding state BUT MA looks at the charge as a full-fledged OUI MA. therefore, i am not clear on what the MA ramifications are: if it is discharged (sorry if terminology is wrong) in MA as OUI i am prohibited but if discharged in other state? the denying officer didn't think it would be a problem, that's why i went through w/ the process. maybe he himself didn't know.

as far as "untruthful", w/o getting into specifics, i did answer "yes" and did disclose all BOPs, arrests, etc. because said incidents were a number of years ago, and up until applying for LTC and having passed two separate CORI checks w/o incident, i thought my recollection of what transpired was accurate and disclosed that to officer during interview. ultimately, two incidents were discharged differently than i recalled, although, i might add, nothing egregious. this was all he needed to think i was "lying" and subsequently, deny me.

i am more than willing to retain counsel on this matter but if i could get to the bottom of this on this forum, it would obviously same me time/$.

thanks again for the help.

 

[In God We Trust]

Question #10 seems like a stupid "gotcha" question anyway. Why do they bother asking it? They have all that info at the stroke of a few keys and they always check anyway. It seems like it is used as an excuse to deny 2A rights to people that don't really remember how a court case went 20 years ago when they were 16.

 

[M1911]

And this is exactly why many of us suggest that when folks have "interesting" legal histories, that they should go to the courts where they appeared, get copies of their records, and take those records to competent firearms attorney prior to applying.

 

[BradM]

IMO if you want an LTC you have no choice but to lawyer up. There is no magical NES advice that will help your denial unfortunatly

 

[Rob Boudrie]

the charge was DWAI (a quick search might narrow the state in which the incident happened). this is non-criminal in corresponding state BUT MA looks at the charge as a full-fledged OUI MA.

This a violation in NY, and technically does not even need to be disclosed on question #10 as it is "non criminal" traffic offense. The trick is convincing the licensing officer of that important nuance. I know that Attorney Cohen has experience in convincing departments as to the import of regional differences in nomenclature (not on this exact issue, but the same concept where the term used in another state sounds like something far worse than it actually is).

Also, DWAI is >.05 and < .08, or anything the officer thinks is impaired - so a BAC that gets "you passed Sir" in MA gets a DWAI arrest and citation in NY.

i am more than willing to retain counsel on this matter but if i could get to the bottom of this on this forum, it would obviously same me time/$.

I submit that you are at, or past, the point where retaining counsel is somewhere between a very good and an excellent idea.

 

[Kisspik002]

after lurking on 'shooters for the past week or so, i decided to join. i know this topic has been covered ad nauseum w/ plenty of info but i would still like some advice on this situation if possible.

i applied for a LTC A in a South Shore town back in '10. i told the licensing officer that i had an OUI from 2006 i received in a different state and would this preclude me from getting the LTC in MA (obviously, the out of state charge did catch up to me in MA: lost license, fines, etc.)? he said it wouldn't and to go ahead w/ the process. took class, range time, references, etc. had interview w/ him, small talk, couple jokes, going well. since i work in public safety in an adjacent city, figured everything would be OK. calls me in less than week later and denies me because he believed i was "untruthful" on app concerning incidents that happened 15+ years ago. nothing about OUI. set up another meeting w/ him to plead my case (why would i jeopardize career by lying on federal app? etc.) but fruitless. he didn't care. denied.

fast forward: have opportunity to become deputy sheriff. need LTC obviously. have since moved to another city, contacted licensing officer in new city and told him situation. he called me back and said they changed the law in '10 that any OUI after '94 is punishable by 2.5 yrs...everything i've read on this forum already (w/ exception of '10 law. didn't read that here, not sure if that's correct), he confirmed. he said i could still try, i could get a lawyer but State would probably kick it back.

i'm not sure what i should do: try to get LTC again in new city and see what happens: see if State denies it or lets it through? or would trying again after previous denial be somehow a grave mistake? would i be reprimanded somehow by the State since i already work in public sector and receive punishment? or just forget everything, accept that i will never have an LTC and move on w/ my life?

any help would be greatly appreciated.

thanks in advance.

Where did you have the chance to become a deputy sheriff? Where you a CO first or just appointed?

 

[karayj]

I think in GOD WE TRUST said it best there is no need to ask question 10 if they can look it up, it's a land mine that they want you to step on. Its almost to the point that you should answer " I am have or may not have been in a court house I dont remember" but that answer would be deemed a denial in this liberal state.

 

[OfficerObie59]

Also, DWAI is >.05 and < .08, or anything the officer thinks is impaired - so a BAC that gets "you passed Sir" in MA gets a DWAI arrest and citation in NY.

Respectfully, this is somewhat incorrect.

Blowing a .06 or .07 in MA does not mean you cannot be charged with OUI; there is just simply no statutory presumption of intoxication if you're under a .08 and your intoxication has to be proven through other indicators. Basically, if you're a super lightweight and legless as a .065, you can still be found guilty. As a practical matter, a DA will likely junk the case unless its part of a bigger case, like a fatal MVA.

You have to blow a .059 or below for the police to be forced to let you walk out the door of the station.

With that consideration, the nature of both the MA and NY offenses may be substantially similar for the purpose of the OP's question.

 

[appraiser]

and all of the DWI numbers assume you were not operating a vehicle requiring a CDL

 

[mctrinket]

Get a lawyer.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

With that consideration, the nature of both the MA and NY offenses may be substantially similar for the purpose of the OP's question.

The OP was told the law changed in 1998 (correct), however, he mentioned out of state offense. If he has a 2006 conviction, the maximum possible penalty is not the 2.5 years provided for under MA law, but the max penalty under the laws of the state in which he was convicted. Applying the MA sentencing criteria to an out of state record is simply irrelevant (though there are offenses where the nature of the offense, rather than the max sentence, triggers a MA prohibition such as a "crime of violence" or a drug offense).

Basically, if you're a super lightweight and legless as a .065, you can still be found guilty.

Thanks for the details on sub .08 impariment, but I don't understand the logic regarding light weight. Since BAC is a percentage, why would .065 be more intoxicated for super light weight person than a middle aged fat guy?

 

[OfficerObie59]

Thanks for the details on sub .08 impariment, but I don't understand the logic regarding light weight. Since BAC is a percentage, why would .065 be more intoxicated for super light weight person than a middle aged fat guy?

"Light weight"--as in someone who has a very low tolerance for booze and can't hold their liquor, not someone who's literally lightweight.

 

[rangoon]

Respectfully, this is somewhat incorrect.

Blowing a .06 or .07 in MA does not mean you cannot be charged with OUI; there is just simply no statutory presumption of intoxication if you're under a .08 and your intoxication has to be proven through other indicators. Basically, if you're a super lightweight and legless as a .065, you can still be found guilty. As a practical matter, a DA will likely junk the case unless its part of a bigger case, like a fatal MVA.

You have to blow a .059 or below for the police to be forced to let you walk out the door of the station.

With that consideration, the nature of both the MA and NY offenses may be substantially similar for the purpose of the OP's question.

That's right, prosecutions below .08 do happen infrequently so an experienced attorney will not say a case is a "slam-dunk" even if this is the case.

 

[M1911]

That's right, prosecutions below .08 do happen infrequently so an experienced attorney will not say a case is a "slam-dunk" even if this is the case.

The late Cross-X defended a fellow who was carrying after two beers. He won, but then he had to fight the suitability crap.

 

[jlu]

after lurking on 'shooters for the past week or so, i decided to join. i know this topic has been covered ad nauseum w/ plenty of info but i would still like some advice on this situation if possible.

i applied for a LTC A in a South Shore town back in '10. i told the licensing officer that i had an OUI from 2006 i received in a different state and would this preclude me from getting the LTC in MA (obviously, the out of state charge did catch up to me in MA: lost license, fines, etc.)? he said it wouldn't and to go ahead w/ the process. took class, range time, references, etc. had interview w/ him, small talk, couple jokes, going well. since i work in public safety in an adjacent city, figured everything would be OK. calls me in less than week later and denies me because he believed i was "untruthful" on app concerning incidents that happened 15+ years ago. nothing about OUI. set up another meeting w/ him to plead my case (why would i jeopardize career by lying on federal app? etc.) but fruitless. he didn't care. denied.

fast forward: have opportunity to become deputy sheriff. need LTC obviously. have since moved to another city, contacted licensing officer in new city and told him situation. he called me back and said they changed the law in '10 that any OUI after '94 is punishable by 2.5 yrs...everything i've read on this forum already (w/ exception of '10 law. didn't read that here, not sure if that's correct), he confirmed. he said i could still try, i could get a lawyer but State would probably kick it back.

i'm not sure what i should do: try to get LTC again in new city and see what happens: see if State denies it or lets it through? or would trying again after previous denial be somehow a grave mistake? would i be reprimanded somehow by the State since i already work in public sector and receive punishment? or just forget everything, accept that i will never have an LTC and move on w/ my life?

any help would be greatly appreciated.

thanks in advance.

Happy first post to me.

I've been reading for months but never registered, but this question caught my attention. I just went through a similar situation in obtaining my MA LTC-A and I can tell you first hand that the first LEO was correct and the second one is incorrect. My DUI was in RI (1st offense) where the max punishment is up to 1 year in jail. I therefore was able to sneak by the DUI DQ rule as it applies to any misdemeanor that is punishable by > 2 years in jail. If you are not comfortable giving the state of your DUI/DWAI offense then we can't specifically help you. But you can help yourself by going to that states' website and reading their laws regarding the offense (sounds like) you were convicted for. If 1st offense DWAI is listed as 2 years or less you are good to go. Of course I am not an attorney, however, I do have recent first hand experience with the same/similar situation.