LTC to FID (downgrading when denied)

[jab5276]

If I were to apply for an LTC in Massachusetts and I were denied, am I then able to be "defaulted" to an FID?

If they find me "unsuitable" for an LTC, can they give me an FID instead? Do I need to reapply?

Would it matter if I reapplied? What have you experienced as far as reapplying goes?

 

[Mesatchornug]

If I were to apply for an LTC in Massachusetts and I were denied, am I then able to be "defaulted" to an FID?

If they find me "unsuitable" for an LTC, can they give me an FID instead? Do I need to reapply?

Would it matter if I reapplied? What have you experienced as far as reapplying goes?

If you're denied, you're going to have a hard time on the FID.

If you're actually worried about this, and not just being paranoid, your best bet is to consult with an attorney that specializes in firearms cases.

 

[42!]

Just my thoughts on this.
The process for suitability denial is slightly different for an LTC and an FID. The LTC is denied and you have to take them to court to appeal. For an FID they have to take you to court to get the suitability denial.
But the standard for suitability is the same.
So if they deny you the LTC and don't on the FID, they've sort of contradicted themselves. I don't see them doing this.

I can see them telling an LTC applicate, "hey, we're just going to deny the LTC so you might as well just go for the FID" I have see that kind of soft denial, where they try to talk you out of it.

 

[aphextwin11]

I had a friend who was seeking FLRB relief due to a OUI conviction from 10+ years ago. When they found out their status as a person stautorily denied from an LTC (at least, without FLRB relief), they recieved their FID first, then went through the process of pursuing their LTC for a reason similar to what you describe. It made revisiting the LTC process incrementally easier because they were already determined suitable for an FID, at least according to them.

If you really think there will be an issue due to something in your past, talk to a lawyer. Seriously, there are a number of lawyers in MA that specialize in this very thing and won't send you to the poor house.

Otherwise, if you're just pant-shitting try getting your FID first. You can always 'upgrade' afterwards once you've fully evaluated your situation and understand the process for obtaining an LTC as it relates to your case in a more sober way.

Good luck!

 

[appraiser]

After the Bruen decision, "unsuitable" has to be clearly articulated and a true disqualifier

There is no more of this Medford, Woburn, Lowell, etc etc etc BS that we deny you because we can because the Chief thinks you are unsuitable.

Unless you are statutorily prohibited by state or federal law, you would have to be a first class f*ck up with a history of doing really stupid things to get denied at this point IMHO.

If you have anything in your past that you think would give the cops a legal reason to deny you, prior arrests, convictions, drug use, threats to others, self harm, etc then you need to get all your court records from each court where you were arraigned and then find a good 2A lawyer like @nstassel and pay him for a consultation to get his opinion on your best path forward, if any.

 

[allen-1]

After the Bruen decision, "unsuitable" has to be clearly articulated and a true disqualifier

There is no more of this Medford, Woburn, Lowell, etc etc etc BS that we deny you because we can because the Chief thinks you are unsuitable.

Unless you are statutorily prohibited by state or federal law, you would have to be a first class f*ck up with a history of doing really stupid things to get denied at this point IMHO.

If you have anything in your past that you think would give the cops a legal reason to deny you, prior arrests, convictions, drug use, threats to others, self harm, etc then you need to get all your court records from each court where you were arraigned and then find a good 2A lawyer like @nstassel and pay him for a consultation to get his opinion on your best path forward, if any.

Once f***ed - it’s hard to un-f***.

As @appraiser said - if you’ve got anything questionable in your past - see a good attorney BEFORE you apply.

It took me 8 years to get my permit reinstated in CT after it was revoked.

 

[42!]

After the Bruen decision, "unsuitable" has to be clearly articulated and a true disqualifier

There is no more of this Medford, Woburn, Lowell, etc etc etc BS that we deny you because we can because the Chief thinks you are unsuitable.

Unless you are statutorily prohibited by state or federal law, you would have to be a first class f*ck up with a history of doing really stupid things to get denied at this point IMHO.

If you have anything in your past that you think would give the cops a legal reason to deny you, prior arrests, convictions, drug use, threats to others, self harm, etc then you need to get all your court records from each court where you were arraigned and then find a good 2A lawyer like @nstassel and pay him for a consultation to get his opinion on your best path forward, if any.

The clearly articulable was added to the law in 2015, so not a Buen thing. Even with this Judges would use, even quote in their findings, that the CoP had "broad discretion", the old standard. And Buen changed nothing, all it did was clarify that it can't be arbitrary, which was already the law. As long as they can give a reason that is not some kind of generalization, suitability is still a thing. Something along the lines of "The applicant was found to be pissing on the sidewalk at 2:00am. This showed a clear lack of judgement and it is the opinion of this LO that such a lack of judgement, in the presence of a firearm could be a threat to public safety" And a judge at the administrative hearing will agree. Completely within the lines of Buen.

 

[Mtn_Guy]

Sounds like you’re looking for free legal advice on the interwebs. Please keep us posted how this works out for you…

 

[Rob Boudrie]

If you're denied, you're going to have a hard time on the FID.

If you're actually worried about this, and not just being paranoid, your best bet is to consult with an attorney that specializes in firearms cases.

The difference is they must convince a court that you are to dangerous to have an FID.

This generally consists of "Yer honer, this person is dangerous, we even denied him an LTC". The court will then fairly hear what you have to say and rule in favor of the police.

 

[appraiser]

the number of denials or issuing of a T&H only license has fallen to near zero post Bruen.

You have the right to carry a weapon outside of your home for self defense.

Any denial has to be on pretty solid ground because GRO's are looking for another test case to push it even further in our favor

The ruling makes all 2A cases look at a point in time back when the Constitution was framed and adopted not with some current policy BS
The Supreme Court ruling announced a new test for assessing firearms laws, saying restrictions must be “consistent with this nation’s historical tradition of firearm regulation,” and not simply advance an important government interest.

Which is why Lautenburg might finally be ruled unconstitutional after many years of fuktardery after the 5th circuit ruled earlier this year against Lautenburg, and that case is now headed to the Supreme Court, which has not been historically friendly to people screwed over by that law, but post Bruen and with the 5th Circuit getting the ball rolling many people may finally get some relief from BS restraining orders taking away their 2A rights

Federal appeals court strikes down domestic violence gun law

The three-judge panel ruled that the federal law was an "outlier that our ancestors would never have accepted."

www.nbcnews.com

 

[42!]

the number of denials or issuing of a T&H only license has fallen to near zero post Bruen.

You have the right to carry a weapon outside of your home for self defense.

Any denial has to be on pretty solid ground because GRO's are looking for another test case to push it even further in our favor

The ruling makes all 2A cases look at a point in time back when the Constitution was framed and adopted not with some current policy BS
The Supreme Court ruling announced a new test for assessing firearms laws, saying restrictions must be “consistent with this nation’s historical tradition of firearm regulation,” and not simply advance an important government interest.

Which is why Lautenburg might finally be ruled unconstitutional after many years of fuktardery after the 5th circuit ruled earlier this year against Lautenburg, and that case is now headed to the Supreme Court, which has not been historically friendly to people screwed over by that law, but post Bruen and with the 5th Circuit getting the ball rolling many people may finally get some relief from BS restraining orders taking away their 2A rights

Federal appeals court strikes down domestic violence gun law

The three-judge panel ruled that the federal law was an "outlier that our ancestors would never have accepted."

www.nbcnews.com

Please share your data. I've got a couple info requests in process but it will take time to get the information. Since you apparently already have it, it would save some time.

 

[Joeldiaz]

the number of denials or issuing of a T&H only license has fallen to near zero post Bruen.

This is just straight up false. During the last stop of the MA legislature’s gun law “listening tour” one of the panel guests was a police chief who openly bragged about how the LTC application process gives licensing authorities broad discretion to determine who is eligible to be issued an LTC, thanks to suitability. Fact of the matter is, Bruen did virtually nothing to stop anti-2A police chiefs from abusing their authority and using suitability to stop otherwise eligible citizens from exercising their 2A rights.

 

[namedpipes]

Sounds like you’re looking for free legal advice on the interwebs. Please keep us posted how this works out for you…

Although in fairness, many of us, including myself, first arrived in this silicon beach looking for info on how to navigate Mass's insane laws...

OP, spend an hour with a good attorney before applying. There are several here on the site.

 

[appraiser]

OK in reality it was the Commonwealth of MA that put an end to "B ramming" aka Medford's, Lowell's, Woburn's etc etc etc way of not denying you a license and not giving you an avenue to appeal

As for issuing a T&H permit in place of a LTC-A all lawful purposes, how does a licensing authority go in front of a Judge, post Bruen, and argue gee your honor we think he is good enough to have a gun for hunting and target shooting, but we don't think he should be able to carry a gun outside the home for self defense. They can't because the State will not print a license with any restrictions on it.

Unfortunately Bruen did not magically turn MA into a "shall issue" state, but it did IMHO get a lot of licensing authorities to stop the BS (Lowell ) after reading the MA AG's advisory letter and other opinions

 

[Joeldiaz]

OK in reality it was the Commonwealth of MA that put an end to "B ramming" aka Medford's, Lowell's, Woburn's etc etc etc way of not denying you a license and not giving you an avenue to appeal

As for issuing a T&H permit in place of a LTC-A all lawful purposes, how does a licensing authority go in front of a Judge, post Bruen, and argue gee your honor we think he is good enough to have a gun for hunting and target shooting, but we don't think he should be able to carry a gun outside the home for self defense. They can't because the State will not print a license with any restrictions on it.

Unfortunately Bruen did not magically turn MA into a "shall issue" state, but it did IMHO get a lot of licensing authorities to stop the BS (Lowell ) after reading the MA AG's advisory letter and other opinions

I understand that restrictions are gone, that’s not what I was referring to when I replied to your statement. I specifically bolded “the number of denials.” You said those (in addition to restrictions) fell to near zero. that’s just a completely false statement either way you look at it. Restrictions are at absolute zero. Denials haven’t changed, the suitability statute is unchanged by Bruen.

 

[M1911]

If I were to apply for an LTC in Massachusetts and I were denied, am I then able to be "defaulted" to an FID?

If they find me "unsuitable" for an LTC, can they give me an FID instead? Do I need to reapply?

Would it matter if I reapplied? What have you experienced as far as reapplying goes?

If denied an LTC you would need to apply For an FID. However, if you honestly think that there are legal grounds by which you would not be suitable for an LTC then you had better talk to a firearms attorney before applying for anything. There have been cases where individuals have been issued an FID but were, in fact, treated by the ATF as a federally prohibited person.