LTC Declined

Rating - 100%
46   0   0
Joined
Apr 4, 2013
Messages
4,948
Likes
2,661
Location
He Gone!
My friend was denied his LTC recently in one of the greenest towns in the state. First is his letter to the chief asking why he was denied, Second, the chiefs reply.

Re: Hello My name is Abraham Lincoln. I’m writing you in regards to the letter of denial I received in the mail . When I took my safety coarse I asked Officer Oppression about the OUI I had over 20 years ago and he told me if I never had to serve time for the offence that I should be ok to obtain my ltc . Do you have any advise on what I might do at this time . I am enclosing a copy of the letter I received . Thank you


Dear Mr. Lincoln:
The O.U.I. on your C.O.R.I report is not why I denied your LTC Application. I denied your application due to a guilty finding on your record for the crime of Malicious Destruction of Property. I will tell you that the guilty conviction for Malicious Destruction of Property was not discernable as to whether or not it was for destruction of property that was valued over or under $250.00. Malicious Destruction of Property over $250.00 is a felony in Massachusetts and the law does not provide me the authority to disregard the statute and issue you an LTC. If you can prove that your guilty finding for Malicious Destruction of Property was for property valued under $250.00, then I can issue you a Class A LTC. We tried to get the old records from the court and from the police department that charged you but we could not acquire the court record or case file, due to the age of the record, so if you have the needed documentation, then you should submit a copy of that documentation to me for my review. Otherwise, I would contact an attorney to assist you with resolving this matter with the court and/or the firearms records bureau.

Sincerely,
Hitler
Chief of Police
Police Departmentof the Waffen SS

Can they seriously deny you for something they don't even have record of!?!?

How much is this goin to cost to fix? Are there any steps he can take besides hiring a lawyer.

This friend of mine is like a dad to me, so i'd really like to be able to share this hobby with him. Any help is appreciate? Thanks to all who respond.
 
Rating - 100%
55   0   0
Joined
Jan 13, 2009
Messages
30,781
Likes
8,650
Location
free hampshire
hire a lawyer, figure out wtf happened, correct it.

the cop is saying he can't issue the LTC because he doesn't know whether your buddy is a convicted felon or not, if he has a felony on his record he's a federally prohibited person and a LTC is the least of his worries.
 
Rating - 100%
55   0   0
Joined
Jan 13, 2009
Messages
30,781
Likes
8,650
Location
free hampshire
How can they prove it either way if there aren't any records though?
there's a record of something as the letter you posted says he plead guilty to a charge of malicious destruction of property.

so he plead guilty--has a conviction. the cop says he'll issue the LTC as long as it wasn't over $250 making it a felony.

if your buddy plead guilty to malicious destruction of property over $250 he's a felon and is forever noguns. not legally anyway.
 
Rating - 100%
46   0   0
Joined
Apr 4, 2013
Messages
4,948
Likes
2,661
Location
He Gone!
Mr. Lincoln smashed the windshield out of a car in the 1980's...he said he doesn't think the amount was over $250. I just don't understand how they don't know if he is a felon or not. Isn't that something that should beon his record if he is?
 
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
Joined
Dec 8, 2007
Messages
9,608
Likes
4,048
Location
Right behind you.
your buddy needs to call the court in which he appeared to answer for that charge. The docket will say what he was charged with and what he plead to (eg a felony or misdemeanor).

This shouldn't be hard at all to get to the bottom of. IF calling the court proves difficult (sometimes the clerks can be very stupid or obtuse) then he needs hire a lawyer to get the case records.

Malicious destruction of property.....sounds like a swell guy.
 

drgrant

Moderator
NES Member
Rating - 100%
59   0   0
Joined
Mar 21, 2006
Messages
68,335
Likes
26,174
He needs to pick up his docket from the court (s) and get a lawyer. He's obviously too dense to apply on his own.
 
Rating - 100%
46   0   0
Joined
Apr 4, 2013
Messages
4,948
Likes
2,661
Location
He Gone!
I figure there are records but they didn't want to dig too deep. Ie cost to them might not be worth it.
Ok...so, will hiring a lawyer do anything...ie, will the lawyer possibly be able to find this record that somehow a chief of police can't/won't find?
 
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
Joined
Dec 8, 2007
Messages
9,608
Likes
4,048
Location
Right behind you.
Mr. Lincoln smashed the windshield out of a car in the 1980's...he said he doesn't think the amount was over $250. I just don't understand how they don't know if he is a felon or not. Isn't that something that should beon his record if he is?
yes, there is a record. probably in an archive box in the basement of the courthouse..getting the records is hard sometimes though. SNIP edit...

- - - Updated - - -

Ok...so, will hiring a lawyer do anything...ie, will the lawyer possibly be able to find this record that somehow a chief of police can't/won't find?
he needs to call a lawyer (usually a quick consultation is free or cheap) and ask these questions.
 
Last edited:

drgrant

Moderator
NES Member
Rating - 100%
59   0   0
Joined
Mar 21, 2006
Messages
68,335
Likes
26,174
Mr. Lincoln smashed the windshield out of a car in the 1980's...he said he doesn't think the amount was over $250. I just don't understand how they don't know if he is a felon or not. Isn't that something that should beon his record if he is?
Mass has a shitload of misdafelonies which make this more problematic.
 

drgrant

Moderator
NES Member
Rating - 100%
59   0   0
Joined
Mar 21, 2006
Messages
68,335
Likes
26,174
Ok...so, will hiring a lawyer do anything...ie, will the lawyer possibly be able to find this record that somehow a chief of police can't/won't find?
He should go to.the courthouse and try to get the records himself first, it will save him some money with counsel if he can do that up front.
 
Rating - 100%
46   0   0
Joined
Apr 4, 2013
Messages
4,948
Likes
2,661
Location
He Gone!
Wow...nothing like passing judgement on a guy who smashed some *******s windshield 30 years ago.

...

I guess you never did anything stupid as a kid?

For the record...he's the most loyal friend i've ever had, and I'd take a bullet for him just as fast as i'd take one for any of my brothers/sisters in arms...RAH?
 
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
Joined
Dec 8, 2007
Messages
9,608
Likes
4,048
Location
Right behind you.
Wow...nothing like passing judgement on a guy who smashed some *******s windshield 30 years ago.

...

I guess you never did anything stupid as a kid?

For the record...he's the most loyal friend i've ever had, and I'd take a bullet for him just as fast as i'd take one for any of my brothers/sisters in arms...RAH?
lighten up francis...I posted helpful info ...maybe focus on that.


Oh and no, I never destroyed other peoples' shit.
 
Rating - 100%
46   0   0
Joined
Apr 4, 2013
Messages
4,948
Likes
2,661
Location
He Gone!
Anyway...sound advice...i will tell him to go to the court and get his docket...it's a start, right?
 

jpm

NES Member
Rating - 100%
79   0   0
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Messages
5,509
Likes
1,289
yes, there is a record. probably in an archive box in the basement of the courthouse..getting the records is hard sometimes though. What's funny is your friend probably could have left that off of his application and would have got the LTC....his honesty ****ed him (not advised to do this as it's perjury and very old records have a way of showing up years later when someone gets around to scanning old paper archives).
the COP said it was on his CORI report so leaving it off would have screwed him worse.
 

jasons

Moderator
Moderator
NES Life Member
NES Member
Rating - 100%
43   0   0
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Messages
15,794
Likes
3,400
What's funny is your friend probably could have left that off of his application and would have got the LTC....his honesty ****ed him

Not really, sounds like there was a conviction on his CORI (in addition to the OUI) but it didn't specify whether it was misdemeanor or felony.

Like other have mentioned, it's on him to go track down the docket. Individual courts keep their own records and not all of that "local" information (or complete information) is necessarily uploaded to the CORI database.

Actually the chief here could have been a WAY bigger dick.
 
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
Joined
Dec 8, 2007
Messages
9,608
Likes
4,048
Location
Right behind you.
chief seems like one of the good guys in my book. He tells you exactly what to do to fix it, and when fixed he will issue.
he's actually trying to save the OP's "friend" from a world of hurt too it seems. since he can't tell if it's a felony or not he could issue the license and have 0 liability but if it DID turn out to be a felony the OP's "friend" would go try to buy a gun and commit a shiny new felony.
 
Rating - 100%
106   0   0
Joined
Mar 3, 2009
Messages
7,540
Likes
1,873
Location
Vermont
chief seems like one of the good guys in my book. He tells you exactly what to do to fix it, and when fixed he will issue.
Yeah the Hitler / Waffen SS stuff seemed over the top. Chief can't issue to a PP, and he is unable to determine if they are a PP, and said that he will issue if records are provided showing that the conviction doesn't make him a PP. Seems pretty straightforward to me...
 

swatgig

NES Life Member
NES Member
Rating - 100%
6   0   0
Joined
May 26, 2011
Messages
5,102
Likes
4,442
Location
In the shallow end of the gene pool
Just to complicate matters, in 1987 "two hundred and fifty dollars" was substituted for "one hundred dollars", so if the windshield cost $101 to replace in 1985, he may be screwed.

If he orders a CORI, is says right on it whether it's a Misdemeanor or Felony
 
Rating - 100%
26   0   0
Joined
Jan 5, 2008
Messages
7,146
Likes
3,496
Location
My forest stronghold
Comm2A would be very interested in hearing from the OP's friend. We might be able to help in some way, but don't expect it to be the next case we file. (That might be sooner than you think [wink])

There are a couple of interesting issues here based upon the OP:

1) When we talk about about 'green' vs. 'red' towns, the analysis is strictly limited to whether the town in question typically issues unrestricted LTCs to all applicants. Comm2A frequently sues police chiefs in so-called 'green' towns for infringing upon the Second Amendment rights of their residents in other ways. Many 'green' towns have utterly unreasonable licensing practices.

2) A license denial letter should clearly state the reason(s) for denying the license. Here, the OP's friend apparently does not know if he was denied because he was statutorily prohibited from receiving a license or if the chief determined that he was 'unsuitable' and why. A third possibility is that the chief decided that the applicant was unsuitable because the chief was unable to determine if the offense on his CORI was a statutory disqualification. This is a chief being lazy and plays into problem #3.

3) The licensing authority is requiring the OP's friend to prove that he's NOT barred from exercising an enumerated right. A fundamental problem with the Massachusetts regulatory scheme is that it shifts the burden of proof to the person denied a license. This is one of the reasons that Comm2A sued the Pepperell ('green' town) police chief in Celona v. Scott. In Celona, the PD denied a license because the applicant was unable to prove that they were not guilty of a disqualifying offense. In other words, the applicant was required to prove a negative and the Massachusetts district court upheld. In the case of the OP's friend, the police chief appears happy to issue the license if the OP's friend can prove that he or she is not barred from a license.

4) Massachusetts if rife with 'misdafelonies', i.e. minor, non-violent offenses that carry absurdly long potential terms of incarceration or which are classified a actual felonies despite being minor crimes. These cases are a priority for Comm2A.
 
Last edited:
Rating - 100%
46   0   0
Joined
Apr 4, 2013
Messages
4,948
Likes
2,661
Location
He Gone!
Probably not advisable to post the letter word for word on the Internet.
Tough crowd here...anyway, I'm just trying to help the guy out. I anonomized (if that's a word) the letter best I could so you could have the full story here and i could get the best advice. There's nothing nefarious going on here...what's the big deal?

- - - Updated - - -

chief seems like one of the good guys in my book. He tells you exactly what to do to fix it, and when fixed he will issue.
I agree...his hands are tied.
 
Top Bottom