LTC class at AGGUNS: pretty good

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Hello,

Thought I'd tell you about my experience at AGGUNS with the LTC class I took.

First, the instuctor: Bill was great. The material could be pretty boring I imagine, but he kept things moving and interesting. Occasionally he'd get dragged of on a tangent by someone in the room trying to show off what they know, but he'd bring it quickly back to the teaching topic. He was very thorough and precise in his instruction.

Class Size: Way too big. Over 25 people with guns in a room too small. You HAD to point your gun at someone else. It was very uncomfortable in that sense. I'm very concious of where the barrel is pointing and I found myself wanting to point down at the floor instead of "down range" during class room instruction so that I wasn't pointing at the guy across the room. (All guns were of course unloaded and there was no ammo in the room).

Material: Not having taken the course before, its difficult for me to judge whether sufficient or not, but here's the high points what we covered (and didn't):

1) Basic rules of gun safety.
2) Basic anatomy of semi-auto and revolver pistol
3) Rules of handling at the range and basic range commands
4) Sight alignment and grip.
5) Actual practice of the loading/unloading/dry firing of semi-auto. Include's strong emphasis on body position for various movements so that the muzzle is always pointed down range.
6) Drills on a thier "11 steps" to unloading/clearing a gun after malfunction or "Cease Fire" command.
7) Quasi-live fire exercise on a simulator (see below). Well, this thing came as a surprise. They don't tell you ahead of time that you won't shoot real ammo. So I was rather disapointed by this. I'd wanted to be able to try several calibers, etc. and they didn't offer that. Biggest drawback of the class. But then I didn't have to worry about my class mates (many of whom were less concerned about muzzle direction than I!) shooting me!
8) Safe storage and transport
9) Mass Gun Law and Castle law

I'm sure I've missed something in the list, but this was basicly it. Interspersed throughout were comments on appropriate use of force, simple things to consider BEFORE an intruder enters your home, etc. This kept things moving and interesting while going through some less interesting parts of the course.

Simulator: Well, it may not be real ammo, but this thing is WAY COOL. It uses real guns: (1) full size S&W and (2) full size Glocks. These are retrofitted with electronics and a pnumatic gizmo to drive the slide. Speakers provided the "bang".

Using this to target shoot you could analyze shot by shot what you were actually doing and why you were missing the target. After shooting the virtual target a trace would come up showing your gun placement prior to trigger pull, during trigger pull, and after firing. This allowed you to see if your trigger pull was making you go way to one side or the other, etc.

All things said, I'd rather have the experience of shooting a variety of calibers, but I would go back after shooting for a little while for the bullseye course on this tool. It was immediately obvious that it would be valuable for this kind of training.

The also offer a "judgemental shooting" course on the simulator where you interact with characters on the screen and have to choose to shoot or not under stressed situations. I think I may do that course also once I can consistently hit a reasonable target in rapid fire.

Cost: $130... pretty high, but it was the only course I could find offerred on Saturday... (it's 9 continuous hours).

Overall: Well, I wouldn't try to dissuade someone from taking this course here. If the class size were smaller and there was live fire with multiple guns, it would have been a great class.

They should tell you up front there is no live fire. or maybe it's my fault for assuming. but that seems a fair assumption to me...

The instructor was great and I'd like to take some of the other courses he offers with live fire. If someone else had taught the class who was less enthusiastic, engauging, or knowlagable, I'd be ticked off I spent that much $$ on the class.

I do feel prepared to go to a range an shoot safely now and have a reasonable idea how to proceed in developing my skills. I just hope I can remember by the time my liscense gets put through (as much as 90 days in MA!!).

Anyway, I hope this is helpfull to some of you out there. Otherwise, just ignore.

EDIT: Forgot to mention: You get to buy one gun from AG Guns at cost after taking this class.
 
Great review..

While I have never actually used the simm inside the shop, I have had the chance to handle the guns used for the simm and got a very good explanation of how they work from Dennis, one of the guys who works there.

I do have a friend who has used the simm on a couple different occasions, and said that they were extremely accurate to actual real live fire. He said the only thing that was missing, was the actual smell of burnt powder.

Glad you enjoyed the class...

Adam

PS. As for forgetting what you learned in the 90+ days of waiting... Practice, practice, practice. There are places you can go and rent a gun, or you can always practice safe gun handling with anything that feels like a gun...
 
matt said:
It is an LTC-002. Not 003 or 007. (see http://www.masschiefs.org/hottopics/hot_fire_train.html#list for all course designations)

Yes, it was advertised as an "NRA basic pistol course".



Very interesting, because NRA Basic Pistol has requires actual handgun shooting at a range. Shots are to be fired from a bench-rest, and also two-handed and one-handed. Instructors must also provide a practical, hands-on, gun-cleaning lesson.

To satisfy Massachusetts State Police Basic Firearm Training requirements, the instructor, must, in addition to other topics, cover child-proofiing of firearms, and secure storage of firearms.

It is a damn shame that there are people teaching what they claim are NRA Basic Pistol courses, yet they are not following the NRA lesson plans.

OK, now I will stop ranting. :)
 
You're right C-X. And for $130! [roll] Ed and I take our students to the range and they actually SHOOT! And 25 per class??? Holy overcrowding! We limit it to 4 (mainly because we teach out of our home so there's a space constraint). And, not to make you feel bad Matt, but we charge $55 less than that and I would have taught you on a Saturday. Couldn't offer you an gun discount tho. [lol]

Did you have to take a test afterwards, Matt? How many questions were there and what color was the test? (yes, there's an unlterior motive for asking this).
 
Hi Lynne,

There was a test. ~50 questions, maybe more (three printed pages). Multiple choice and T/F. The color was white.

They also added a written part about thier 11 steps to clear a gun and make it safe.

Don't tell my COP about the class not quite qualifying !!

I'd have rather taken the class from you and your husband. When the time comes, I'll send my wife to you!!


To satisfy Massachusetts State Police Basic Firearm Training requirements, the instructor, must, in addition to other topics, cover child-proofiing of firearms, and secure storage of firearms.

They did cover this... forgot to mention.
 
matt said:
It is an LTC-002. Not 003 or 007. (see http://www.masschiefs.org/hottopics/hot_fire_train.html#list for all course designations)

Yes, it was advertised as an "NRA basic pistol course".
Almost all courses :).

The USPSA Safe Handgun Competitor, MA Edition, was approved as course LTC-013 a few years ago.

Since not all published lists include this course which was added after the initial publication, I always provide students with a copy of the certificate the state police provided when they approve that course, and I have the original approval letter from the Major at the MSP as well.

There there is the list which calls it the "USPS Course" :).
 
If there was no red on the test, it wasn't the NRA test, but without seeing it, it sounds like they copied the NRA exam and added some other things.

Okay NRA inst.'s - does that still qualify as NRA approved? The course is not followed verbatem, which, from my understanding from our instructors course, it MUST be followed exactly to be called the NRA Basic Pistol course.

Then again, I know folks who use the LTC-002 on their certificates, and it's NOT the NRA course...not by a long shot.
 
Lynne said:
If there was no red on the test, it wasn't the NRA test, but without seeing it, it sounds like they copied the NRA exam and added some other things.

Okay NRA inst.'s - does that still qualify as NRA approved? The course is not followed verbatem, which, from my understanding from our instructors course, it MUST be followed exactly to be called the NRA Basic Pistol course.

Then again, I know folks who use the LTC-002 on their certificates, and it's NOT the NRA course...not by a long shot.



Pardon my rant, but here goes:

If an instructor are not following the NRA Lesson Plans, he or she is not teaching an NRA course.

There is another big, lurking problem: if you have NRA Instructor Liability Insurance, you are teaching an "NRA Course" but you are not following the lesson plans, you risk having your coverage denied if there is an accident during the course, especially if the accident occured due to something outside of the lesson plans.

More immediately, instructors who say they are teaching an NRA course, but aren't really, often do their students a big disservice. The NRA way isn't the only way to learn how to shoot and shoot safely, but it certainly is a very good way, so long as the course is properly taught.

I wish more NRA instructors would do a better job of following the lesson plans whenever they teach an NRA course.

(Rant off)




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Hmm, is someone practicing their "double taps"?

Or did you add/change something between posts?

Darius, you should be able to delete the dupe or edit it. If not and you want it deleted, just let us know and the Mods can do that.
 
Thank you Darius. I thought I remembered hearing that in class (since we took the same one :D ). The class Matt took may well be a good class, but, it's not sanctified by the NRA.

And as far as the two I know using the NRA # on the cert. Well, let's just say I seriously doubt they'll change and start teaching it correctly.

Ed and I follow the lesson plan, mainly because it's a good course, and it irritates the crap out of me when I see others teaching something that's one hell of a lot less than desirable and labeling it "NRA".
 
LenS said:
Hmm, is someone practicing their "double taps"?

Or did you add/change something between posts?

Darius, you should be able to delete the dupe or edit it. If not and you want it deleted, just let us know and the Mods can do that.



Thanks for pointing out my unintentional double post. I have deleted one.

Someday I will be the master of my computer, but that day isn't here yet. [roll]
 
Cross-X said:
Someday I will be the master of my computer, but that day isn't here yet. [roll]

We will NEVER be masters of our own computers!! They all do what they feel like, if they feel like it, when they feel like it! [roll]

Even those of us who are computer consultants have to acknowledge this. :?
 
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