LTC-B, Semi-auto pistols

[Mossy Oak]

I am about 2 weeks away from applying for an LTC-B. I'm going for the class B because I've been in contact with the licensing officer who seemed supportive of a class B issuance.

I don't care about owning high capacity pistols, or carrying concealed. So initially, an LTC-B seemed to suit me just fine.

After being in contact with Smith & Wesson Shooting Sports Center, they basically said that all semi-auto pistols would be off-limits to an LTC-B holder. This boggles my mind.

Can this be for real? All I was looking for was a .40 with 10 round magazine for target purposes. So basically if I get a class B, I can only buy revolvers? I just can't fathom that this is true. If anybody has any thoughts about what I've just said, please respond.

 

[rht4162]

i to would like to know, where abouts in NE are you located? the particular state laws could also be a factor

 

[Mossy Oak]

i to would like to know, where abouts in NE are you located? the particular state laws could also be a factor

Southeastern Massachusetts

 

[rht4162]

CLASS B LTC

The holder of a Class B LTC is entitled to purchase, possess, rent, use, borrow, lease, and carry non-large capacity firearms and revolvers (with rotating cylinders of less than 10 rounds), as well as any rifle or shotgun, including large capacity rifles and shotguns. Persons issued a Class B LTC are not permitted to carry a loaded concealed weapon in public. Further restrictions on said license may be imposed by the licensing authority.
As with Class A restrictions, a violation of a Class B restriction shall be cause for the suspension or revocation of the license and shall subject the licensee to a $1,000 to $10,000 fine, but the provisions of M.G.L. c269 s10, shall not apply to the violation.



so that seems pretty clear cut to me, have you spoken with any instructors or LEO's?

 

[fox5]

I've had classes at Smith and Wesson academy: Handgun Safety, Handgun Tech. and Concealed Carry.
You're pretty much SOL with class B I think. Apply for a Class A, even if you get some sort of restriction, its better a better option than a Class B.


Massachusetts Gun Licensing Requirements
Complying with the Gun Control Act of 1998

Effective June 1, 1998, all new firearm license applicants must complete a certified firearms safety course or Basic Hunter Education Course

The new law creates two types of licenses to carry (LTC):

CLASS “A" LTC: Permits the purchase, possession and carrying of all ammunition, handguns, rifles, shotguns and feeding devices (both large and non-large capacity). This is the only license that allows the carrying of concealed handguns-either loaded or unloaded.

CLASS “B" LTC: Permits the purchase, possession and carrying of all ammunition, non-large capacity handguns, and all rifles and shotguns (large and non-large capacity).
Definition of Large Capacity Weapon

A weapon is large capacity if it is a semi-automatic handgun or rifle that is capable of accepting (or readily modifiable to accept) any detachable large capacity feeding device that holds more than ten rounds, OR if it is a shotgun capable of accepting more than five shotgun shells, OR if it is an assault weapon.

NOTE: A .22 caliber rifle with a fixed tubular magazine is not considered large capacity.
Class "A" and Class "B" License to Carry (LTC) Information


CLASS “A" LTC: Allows the holder to transport a loaded or unloaded handgun on his person or in a motor vehicle if the handgun is under their direct control. Handgun does not have to be in a locked case or container.

CLASS “B" LTC: Allows the holder to transport a non-large capacity handgun. Handgun must be unloaded and secured in a locked trunk or locked container.

 

[rht4162]

I've had classes at Smith and Wesson academy: Handgun Safety, Handgun Tech. and Concealed Carry.
You're pretty much SOL with class B I think. Apply for a Class A, even if you get some sort of restriction, its better a better option than a Class B.


Massachusetts Gun Licensing Requirements
Complying with the Gun Control Act of 1998

Effective June 1, 1998, all new firearm license applicants must complete a certified firearms safety course or Basic Hunter Education Course

The new law creates two types of licenses to carry (LTC):

CLASS “A" LTC: Permits the purchase, possession and carrying of all ammunition, handguns, rifles, shotguns and feeding devices (both large and non-large capacity). This is the only license that allows the carrying of concealed handguns-either loaded or unloaded.

CLASS “B" LTC: Permits the purchase, possession and carrying of all ammunition, non-large capacity handguns, and all rifles and shotguns (large and non-large capacity).
Definition of Large Capacity Weapon

A weapon is large capacity if it is a semi-automatic handgun or rifle that is capable of accepting (or readily modifiable to accept) any detachable large capacity feeding device that holds more than ten rounds, OR if it is a shotgun capable of accepting more than five shotgun shells, OR if it is an assault weapon.

NOTE: A .22 caliber rifle with a fixed tubular magazine is not considered large capacity.
Class "A" and Class "B" License to Carry (LTC) Information


CLASS “A" LTC: Allows the holder to transport a loaded or unloaded handgun on his person or in a motor vehicle if the handgun is under their direct control. Handgun does not have to be in a locked case or container.

CLASS “B" LTC: Allows the holder to transport a non-large capacity handgun. Handgun must be unloaded and secured in a locked trunk or locked container.

so since it is capable it seems like it would fall under large capacity, though technically large potential capacity, i would suggest merely applying for the class A to not have to deal with restrictions that might otherwise hinder or make your life more difficult, and since your in mass like i am we already have many requirements that prevent many models from even being sold here. so i suggest dont limit yourself any more. go class A

 

[NIGHT_OWL]

Mossy Oak.... If you want a semi auto pistol your gonna need a class A. Because semi auto pistols generally have the "capacity" to accept mags that hold more than ten rounds. You seem to be interested in a nice S&W 40. with the Mass "low cap" mags. In order for you to get one you need the class A. Contact your Police licensing Officer and explain that you want a semi auto and therefore need a Class A. They many times will issue a class A with "restrictions". This means it will say "TARGET & HUNTING ONLY" or something similar. Basically it will be a class A that you can't "carry concealed" with. If you explain this to the licensing officer I suspect he will give you a restricted class A. Best of luck...... N_O

 

[mark056]

There are actually a number of semi-automatic pistols that one can purchase as a Class B License holder. Four Seasons Firearms used to list them on their website although I don't think they do anymore. They included the metal framed but still very adequate but discontinued S&W Model 908 as well ss some other models. I also think that the Walther PP/PPK and the Sig P239 would be availabe to a Class B license holder as well as 1911's.

The best way to approach this, however, is to apply for a Class A License. Since CCW is not you goal here, you can get a restricted one and not have to worry about capacity issues (except for the stupid 10 round magazine limitation).

All the best and good luck to you,

Mark L.

P.S. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a revolver, either. They are real guns !

 

[NIGHT_OWL]

There are actually a number of semi-automatic pistols that one can purchase as a Class B License holder. Four Seasons Firearms used to list them on their website although I don't think they do anymore. They included the metal framed but still very adequate but discontinued S&W Model 908 as well ss some other models. I also think that the Walther PP/PPK and the Sig P239 would be availabe to a Class B license holder as well as 1911's.

The best way to approach this, however, is to apply for a Class A License. Since CCW is not you goal here, you can get a restricted one and not have to worry about capacity issues (except for the stupid 10 round magazine limitation).

All the best and good luck to you,

Mark L.

P.S. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a revolver, either. They are real guns !

Mass Mark, I thought 1911's were a no go for a Class B because there are numerous makers of mags over ten rounds? Maybe I'm wrong as usual!

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=564303

I'm not trying to side track the thread or be "The Worlds smartest man", just wanted to get my info strait for the future....

 

[vellnueve]

Mossy Oak.... If you want a semi auto pistol your gonna need a class A. Because semi auto pistols generally have the "capacity" to accept mags that hold more than ten rounds.

WRONG.

Mass Mark, I thought 1911's were a no go for a Class B because there are numerous makers of mags over ten rounds? Maybe I'm wrong as usual!

WRONG.

In practice, a pistol is not large capacity if it is not on the Large Capacity Roster, if it was never shipped from the manufacturer with large capacity magazines, and if it is not currently fitted with a large capacity magazine. Aftermarket mag availability does not make a handgun large capacity. However, because of the pure stupidity and vagueness of the regulations, gun stores will vary in their definitions. For example, since the Smith M&P is not on the Large Capacity Roster (or wasn't the last time I looked at it), and because the MA models were all shipped with 10 round magazines, it's not technically a large capacity handgun, but you'll find that many stores will not even sell you the M&P40 Compact even though it's free state capacity is also only ten rounds. I guarantee that you will see the same behavior with the M&P45, which IIRC has ten round magazines standard. OTOH, the Smith Model 41 was at one time in the past shipped with 12 round magazines, thus, even though today it is almost always found with ten rounders, it is considered large capacity.

 

[JonJ]

Mossy Oak, Just apply for a Class A and be done with it. There is no reason to potentially further restrict your rights. You may change your mind about "high capacity" pistols and carrying concealed.

 

[NIGHT_OWL]

WRONG.




WRONG.

In practice, a pistol is not large capacity if it is not on the Large Capacity Roster, if it was never shipped from the manufacturer with large capacity magazines, and if it is not currently fitted with a large capacity magazine. Aftermarket mag availability does not make a handgun large capacity. However, because of the pure stupidity and vagueness of the regulations, gun stores will vary in their definitions. For example, since the Smith M&P is not on the Large Capacity Roster (or wasn't the last time I looked at it), and because the MA models were all shipped with 10 round magazines, it's not technically a large capacity handgun, but you'll find that many stores will not even sell you the M&P40 Compact even though it's free state capacity is also only ten rounds. I guarantee that you will see the same behavior with the M&P45, which IIRC has ten round magazines standard. OTOH, the Smith Model 41 was at one time in the past shipped with 12 round magazines, thus, even though today it is almost always found with ten rounders, it is considered large capacity.

Dude.... Could you have made the "wrongs" any bigger? Damm..........

 

[Mike-Mike]

let me know if your looking for a S&W 4513tsw I got one for sale.

 

[Make It In Mass]

My S&W M&P 9mm Full Size is categorized as a "Large Capacity" handgun on the registration form. The store where it was purchased would not have sold it to me if I held an LTC-B. That is the irony of Mass gun laws, a non-high capacity handgun being treated as high capacity, though owning a >10 round magazine for it is a felony under any circumstances.

 

[appraiser]

applying for a class B is not worth the effort or ink. Class A or don't bother.

If they are going to restrict an A you can at least buy something to shoot with that will make your shooting time enjoyable. Unless you want to limit yourself to 6 shot revolvers go for the A.

Apply for All Lawful Purposes Class A

 

[C-pher]

In practice, a pistol is not large capacity if it is not on the Large Capacity Roster, if it was never shipped from the manufacturer with large capacity magazines, and if it is not currently fitted with a large capacity magazine. Aftermarket mag availability does not make a handgun large capacity. However, because of the pure stupidity and vagueness of the regulations, gun stores will vary in their definitions. For example, since the Smith M&P is not on the Large Capacity Roster (or wasn't the last time I looked at it), and because the MA models were all shipped with 10 round magazines, it's not technically a large capacity handgun, but you'll find that many stores will not even sell you the M&P40 Compact even though it's free state capacity is also only ten rounds. I guarantee that you will see the same behavior with the M&P45, which IIRC has ten round magazines standard. OTOH, the Smith Model 41 was at one time in the past shipped with 12 round magazines, thus, even though today it is almost always found with ten rounders, it is considered large capacity.

While this is partially correct. Where it comes into play is if the firearms has "left the factory" with a magazine larger than 10 rounds. The M&P's have left the factory with a larger than 10 round magazine to just about everywhere but MA and CA. Therefore, they are considered Large Capacity.

If you look at the Large Capacity Roster, it reads as follows:

Weapons not listed on this roster may also be large capacity weapons if they are semi-automatic and are capable of accepting or readily modifiable to accept a large capacity feeding device.

http://www.mass.gov/Eeops/docs/chsb/firearms/largecap_10_2007.pdf

So, this roster is only to be used as a Guide. As many pistols that are not listed on this roster can and ARE considered Large Capacity. Last thing that I would want on my conscience is that I made a Felon out of someone because I didn't want to believe that the pistol wasn't large capacity just because it wasn't on the list.

For the most part, any single stack Semi Auto Pistol should be good to go on a Class B. You would only need a Class A for a 1911 say, when you purchase one of those 30 round magazines. But, from the factory (for the most part), .45 1911s are all shipped with an 8 round magazine.

You need to be very careful when you purchase pistols from dealers in MA as some will try to sell you anything they have because it comes with a 10 round magazine. This could get you into a lot of trouble. As well as bad advice from other people.

The easiest way to think of a Class B. If the pistol left the factory with a magazine to anywhere in the USA, think of it as large capacity. Don't care that it's 10 rounds into MA. I believe that MA will consider it large capacity if there are factory magazines made for that pistol that carry more than 10 rounds.

If I'm wrong, I hope that Scriv or Cross-X will let me know. But that's how I'm to believe MA works with regards to this.

Class B = Screwed for gun ownership.

But, on a good note, you can own large capacity long guns.

 

[Blitz1]

Apply for a LTC-A Restrictions none (formerly ALP) then you don't have to worry about it.

Don't restrict yourself with a class B license.

 

[Ham Slam]

Don't talk yourself into a class B. You may feel now that you don't care, however a year after getting a class b you will want a class A. You will become more comfortable with guns and find yourself going places that you may want to carry. I have a Class A and only carry maybe three times a month, but atleast I have that option.

 

[MassMark]

Just apply for a Class A....Screw the B....Do you really want to be stuck if your tastes, needs and opportunities change?

 

[jdubois]

If I'm wrong, I hope that Scriv or Cross-X will let me know. But that's how I'm to believe MA works with regards to this.

I wouldn't count on Scriv letting you know, seeing how he's been banned for telling people they are "WRONG!" Vellnueve is certainly becoming our Scriv. Jr, however

By the letter of the law, a gun is only large capacity if it is on the roster, or it currently has a large capacity magazine inserted in it or under the direct control of the person who has direct control of the gun. Period. However, the lawyers seem to be comfortable with the 'left the factory with a large capacity magazine' criteria (why, I don't know) so you're best to listen to them there.

 

[Laryk]

good friend of mine has a class b, and currently owns a sig p220, a S&W 1911, a sig mosquito, and an AR-15. your options are limited, but not destroyed

 

[terraformer]

Dude.... Could you have made the "wrongs" any bigger? Damm..........

He's in the beginning stages of Scriveners withdrawal. Scriveners Dependence Syndrome is a disease that afflicts those dealing with, on a regular basis, newbies and others lacking strict attention to detail. This is contagious and patients in later stages of withdrawal show symptoms such as the persistent and uncontrollable urge to use "TSTL" and the rolling eyes emoticon.

 

[EddieCoyle]

He's in the beginning stages of Scriveners withdrawal. Scriveners Dependence Syndrome is a disease that afflicts those dealing with, on a regular basis, newbies and others lacking strict attention to detail. This is contagious and patients in later stages of withdrawal show symptoms such as the persistent and uncontrollable urge to use "TSTL" and the rolling eyes emoticon.

That didn't seem to work out too well for Scrivener. I have a hard time figuring out why anybody would want to go down the same path.

 

[matt1956]

Go for the class A.

As many have stated:

1 - you will likely run into issues buying firearms that although perfectly legal with a class B provided you only own <10 mags, some shops/gun sellers will not sell to you for fear of the gooberment

2 - if they are willing to give a class B... there is no reason not to issue a class A, and why restrict yourself... your mind may change and you would not want to have to wait for the 6 years to fix it.

3 - if the issuing officer says a "Class B" is ok, then you will likely get a restricted class A that will let you buy whatever you want (that is MA OK) but you just can't carry (yes... simplified)

bottom line, I would apply for an unrestricted class A and then if they give you a restricted A... you are already 1 up... if you get your B... I wouldnt be happy with it... but... in MA...

But you surely do not want to give the gooberment the chance to restrict you right off the bat. You never know when something that may come by that fancies your eye that only a class A can have and you never know when you may deside that you want to start to carry.

personally for me... i didnt think i would want to carry when I got my lic... now it kills me that I have to wait another year and a 1/2 to get an unretricted... (BTW... the town restricted me... not me)

 

[Len-2A Training]

MO, I know that you read my post #15 here, as you gave me a Rep Point for it.

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=695743&postcount=15

WHY on Earth would you APPLY for LTC-B, knowing that you'll have nothing but grief when you go to buy anything, even privately (there's even an WTS here that demands a LTC-A for selling his AR15 UPPER-which legally requires NO PERMIT)?

The PD will issue whatever it likes, regardless of what you put on the application . . . HOWEVER they will never issue a HIGHER LTC than you request!! So if you request LTC-A, they will likely give you LTC-A/Restricted . . . BUT if you request LTC-B, that's all that you can hope to get for the NEXT SIX YEARS (a very long time)!

Make a case to the LO that a LTC-B won't allow you to target shoot (S&W 41, 422 and 622 are ALL legally hi-cap guns and on the hi-cap list) and many gun shops will basically refuse to sell you almost any semi-auto handgun.

Go for the gold (BMW), it's the same price, has the same requirements as he Yugo that you are telling us you are looking to buy! Hiring a lawyer to help you if this is a difficult town (sounds like it could be Brockton) might be short money vs. the aggravation you'll have to put up with for SIX YEARS!

 

[matt1956]

(sounds like it could be Brockton)

if that is the case... you will get a restricted LTC A for 6 years then an Un restricted (so I'm told) when you renew.

 

[C-pher]

Then why does the MA Large Cap Roster have that comment in there if the law says it only on that roster?

 

[Len-2A Training]

Then why does the MA Large Cap Roster have that comment in there if the law says it only on that roster?

I'll tell you what Ron Glidden told me some years ago, and he is the likely author of those words.

People were confused, so he tried to make it clear that if you possess BOTH a hi-cap mag and an otherwise low-cap gun (e.g. 1911), you NOW must possess the LTC-A and you have a "hi-cap combo".

When they created the list (probably ~2000) they never anticipated that the Fed Ban would sunset, leaving a very fuzzy situation where almost all guns currently mfd come with hi-caps to Free America and crippled mags to MA/CA.

In one way, we are sorta lucky they don't take on the task of revising that list monthly! But it does add to the confusion.

 

[M1911]

I am about 2 weeks away from applying for an LTC-B. I'm going for the class B because I've been in contact with the licensing officer who seemed supportive of a class B issuance.

I don't care about owning high capacity pistols, or carrying concealed. So initially, an LTC-B seemed to suit me just fine.

Apply for an LTC-A. The process and cost is the same as for an LTC-B. Most of restrictive towns will issue a restricted LTC-A.

After being in contact with Smith & Wesson Shooting Sports Center, they basically said that all semi-auto pistols would be off-limits to an LTC-B holder. This boggles my mind.

Can this be for real? All I was looking for was a .40 with 10 round magazine for target purposes. So basically if I get a class B, I can only buy revolvers? I just can't fathom that this is true. If anybody has any thoughts about what I've just said, please respond.

IANAL, but this is my understanding of the law. YMMV. MGL Chapter 140 S121 defines a large capacity weapon as:

“Large capacity weapon”, any firearm, rifle or shotgun: ... (ii) that is semiautomatic and capable of accepting, or readily modifiable to accept, any detachable large capacity feeding device;

Taking a literal interpretation of this, most any semi-automatic gun that accepts a removable magazine would be considered large capacity. If the law was interpreted that way, however, it would not be in accordance with the intent of the legislation. The intent of the law was to create two different classes of guns: large capacity and non-large capacity, and that large capacity would be regulated more strictly. Using the literal interpretation would defeat the intent of the legislation.

So EOPS determined that guns originally manufactured as large capacity would be considered to be large capacity. Guns originally manufactured without large capacity magazines would be considered to be non-large capacity UNLESS you had in your possession a large capacity magazine. So, a 1911 is non-large capacity, unless you have a large capacity magazine, in which case it is large capacity. Same for a 10/22. EOPS publishes a list of large capacity guns: http://www.mass.gov/Eeops/docs/chsb/firearms/largecap_10_2007.pdf

Confused yet?

Best solution, just get an LTC-A. There is NO REASON to apply for an LTC-B.

 

[jdubois]

So EOPS determined that guns originally manufactured as large capacity would be considered to be large capacity.

Here's where my rub has always been. Where is this determination, for guns not on the list, stated? For non-listed guns, the large capacity roster says, "weapons equipped with a large capacity feeding device" It does not say, "weapons originally equipped with a large capacity feed device." The very existence of the list that determines which guns are considered large capacity implies that guns not on the list (and not subject to their specific listed additions) are NOT large capacity.

Again, I follow what the lawyers say in practice, but I still would like somebody to show me the evidence.