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LTC Application - TRO Vacated

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skidooguy6

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l am filling out my LTC app and have a question. On question 12 it asks if you have been the subject of a 209a. I had been served a TRO in 2007 which was then vacated at the initial hearing date 10 days later. The court stamped the date and signed it under section F where it says "Prior Court Order Vacated" and underneath says all records of prior order shall be destroyed by all law enforcement agencies.

I had the PD check my BOP and the guy asked if I ever lived in another state, I told him always in MA. He did not get any info of me ever being at court. I was also never arrested for anything and never appeared in court for anything. Does this mean the TRO technically never existed as there is nothing in their system or is there anyway it would show?

Not sure how to answer the 209a question since there is no record of me ever getting one. Should I put No?
 
Seems like nothing ever really disappears. I had a cwof from waaay back in the day that I remember the lawyer saying would be like it never happened, but its there.

If you answer no and it shows up somehow, youve lied on the app. I'd answer truthfully, attach an explanation along with any paperwork you have from it. Sounds pretty harmless.
 
can't answer the question but in massachusetts, don't be fooled by the wording "sealed" and "destroyed." i have known people who were bitten on the ass when these things show up again some how.
 
Declare it. It will likely rear it's ugly head at some point in time and getting denied for lying on an application is a tough thing to deal with.
 
Len-2A Training said:
Declare it. It will likely rear it's ugly head at some point in time and getting denied for lying on an application is a tough thing to deal with.
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Alright, I don't see it being a problem since the allegations and order was vacated by the court and I have never had to appear in court for anything and have no criminal record.
 
There was a TRO , it was the emergency one issued pending a hearing

The court did not extend the order because of whatever reason, but there was one, and as someone mentioned above, nothing ever goes away in LEO databases.

CYA, declare it, attach a letter that the order was not extended at the time of the hearing, and that you have no other infractions otherwise that would make you a prohibited or unsuitable person.

Then grab your ankles. There are many departments that will see a vacated or expired TRO, even a BS one, and deny on "suitability"
 
appraiser said:
There was a TRO , it was the emergency one issued pending a hearing

The court did not extend the order because of whatever reason, but there was one, and as someone mentioned above, nothing ever goes away in LEO databases.

CYA, declare it, attach a letter that the order was not extended at the time of the hearing, and that you have no other infractions otherwise that would make you a prohibited or unsuitable person.

Then grab your ankles. There are many departments that will see a vacated or expired TRO, even a BS one, and deny on "suitability"
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Thanks, the person who took it out just didn't bother even going to the hearing. The police department ran my BOP and came back with zero results.
 
As has been said, you need to declare it, nothing just goes away in MA.
As for whether or not it will affect you, it comes down to "suitability". Some towns/cities will absolutely hold it against you, others won't care at all.
 
skidooguy6 said:
Got a reply back from two retired state cops that said not to list it since it was vacated...ugh...
Click to expand...

Epic bad idea.

If there is any question in your mind, talk to a lawyer who knows firearms law. Or listen to Len who isn't a lawyer but is more knowledgeable than most lawyers.
 
One is my neighbor who is one of my references and the other is a family friend. I guess when I go tomorrow and girl who processes the application I can explain it to if she asks about my answer. I don't even have any copies of the TRO.
 
What town are you in? Maybe others here could give you a handle on whether your town likes to abuse the suitability angle and how much?
 
There is no such thing as expungement or sealed (even juvi) records in Massachusetts, for the purposes of LTC at least.
List it, explain it, the licensing officer will check it and probably find nothing. The alternative scenario, NOT listing or explaining it and then the licensing officer DOES find something, means you lied on the application. WAY harder to deal with in the future.
 
You can not go wrong by listing it, with the letter attached to the application stating the TRO was not extended at the time of the hearing. You don't have to tell them why.

IMHO and IANAL, you WERE issued a TRO, if you were handed a piece of paper telling you no contact, and to appear at such and such a date you WERE the subject of a TRO ( if someone went to court and got one, if a person claimed you threatened them, if a person claims you assaulted them, does not matter) and if you want to play games and say you were not, fine with me.

But I assure you, the licensing authority, regardless of what the Judge said about destroying records, WILL know about it, and if they miss it the State will surely catch it.

So you can answer no, and then get jammed up on falsifying an application, or you can say yes and the worst case is you will be denied and you can appeal to a district court.

With all due respect for the cops on this board ( and there are some damn good ones here BTW I have great respect for) Police Officers are not Lawyers and they have no business giving legal advice. Look at the woman in NH that got jammed up on a bogus charge because the cop thought he knew the law if you want an example. Google Nate Allen Fort Myers Arrest for another example.
Their opinion is not going to save your arse should this go sideways.... But Your Honor my friend Officer Krupkee told me not to say anything on the application is NOT going to mean a thing to the Judge, D.A., or whomever may decide to use you as an example.

Again, I am not a Lawyer, this is my opinion, your mileage may vary, proceed at your own peril.
 
Last edited:
skidooguy6 said:
Alright, I don't see it being a problem since the allegations and order was vacated by the court and I have never had to appear in court for anything and have no criminal record.
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What you see as a problem or not is irrelevant :)

One department had a policy that any RO issued after a court hearing was a "finding" of "potential for violence" and that no such person would ever be issued an LTC. The court upheld an appeal by a denied applicant.

There are other departments where it is no big deal.

The short form is do not rely on logic to determine what is and is not a problem, and remember, you can win an appeal if you can convince the court that the licensing official did not feel (s)he had a reason to deny you.

In certain cases, there is a "legal fiction" allowing you to claim something that happened did not happen (mostly in other states with regards to expunged records). A TRO in the DRPM is not one of them and, even when "legal fiction" applies, you will have a hard time getting the police to accept and understand the concept.
 
So i went to the PD today for my appointment with the licensing officer. I left the question blank and explained the whole situation to her about it being aTRO then vacated by the court 10 days later. She looked up everything and then checked No for me on the application. She said it does show up I had an order in one of her checks but that it was vacated and dismissed. She also said your birthday is wrong and name is spelled wrong on the old TRO. Took my fingerprints and photo, was very nice and talkative. She goes info not see any problem issue with anything and I expect you to get your LTC in 6 to 8 weeks.

So that's where I am. Explained the TRO and she said it did not need to be listed even after running all my checks.
 
That is correct, she said it comes up on her end but with the wrong name and birthday. She checked No for me even though I said I had one and itnwas vacated by court and I never appeared in court nor did the plaintiff for the initial hearing.

I then signed everything and we did fingerprints.
 
Sorry but I think it's very risky to answer No when you know that you did have an RO, I don't care what a PO doing intake (or was she just an administrator) says, remember it's you that signed it. Saying someone told you it was OK isn't going to help you if it ever gets noticed, this could be days or years from now.

I hope for your sake the state agrees with your intake person because it's the state, not the local PD that would be denying you on that question. And even if you appeal and win you still have to answer that you were denied for the rest of your life.

Maybe it's because you haven't been on NES long, but if Len says something you listen (and this from someone who has, very rarely, disagreed with him on some of the finer points). Rob said the same thing, also a great source of information. In fact everyone here said list it, consensus on NES is a rare thing, you should listen.

Good luck, not just in getting the LTC but also in it not ever coming back at you.

I look forward to your update in 6-8 weeks telling me how wrong I am.
 
I will be very interested in this outcome. I hope you're not in a position to have to argue the cop checked no on the form and then she's denying it. You had a restraining order. It was vacated but it existed. Good luck.
 
i chose to give them all the information and they did not want it and she checked No on my application and then said she wasn't printing out fact that i had a TRO because the name on the order and birthday were wrong and it was vacated. Not really sure what else I was suppose to do if they did not want the information that I provided to them. I provided them with the correct answer and information and the officer did not think it was necessary.
 
garandman said:
On CORI checks it appears everything, ever shows up.
Click to expand...
Do not assume this.

1. There are various levels of CORI check. The LE one is the most complete. Commoners see one of several various redacted versions.

2. There are multiple records - CORI, BOP, III ... hard to be sure you checked them all.

3. Individual PDs have their own record systems, and some officers have long memories.
 

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