-
If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership The benefits pay for the membership many times over.
Ltc A restricted Target and Hutning
- Thread starter HiVolt
- Start date
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2007
- Messages
- 11,135
- Likes
- 1,600
you need to ask the licensing officer who issued your permit. While CHSB has recommended definitions of each restriction, in the end it is up to the issuing officer what it means. I would not only ask for his policy, but also get it in writing. IF he/she will not provide it in writing, then I wouldnt be so crazy as to actually CCW on that permit (imagine you get hung up and the issuing officer says, I issued restricted so that he wouldnt CCW!, yeah, that would suck)
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2007
- Messages
- 11,135
- Likes
- 1,600
in this part, if they say to and from the range, I would tend to say it means to and from the range. Not to work, then to the range. But, cant hurt to ask, jsut dont expect the answer you want.
![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2007
- Messages
- 11,135
- Likes
- 1,600
only true if specified by your issuing authority.
Yea BA2 has it right on this one. Sorry folks who have a restricted license. Ask your licensing officer, get it in writing if possible. Its not their ass/LTC on the line, its your LTC. Just be prepared to hear what you don't necessarily want to hear. (aka move to a green town)
you certainly CAN hunt with a handgun in MA..... not deer.....but handguns can be used for other species/seasons
Unless your authority is willing to give you something in writing, I wouldn't even consider carrying to and from the range. I have no idea where anyone got the impression that "Target & Hunting" meant "Target & Hunting & going to and from the range, and maybe stopping at Dunkies to grap a cup of Joe, and then at the gun shop to grab some more targets." Transport? Yes. Carry? No.
Ken
Ken
The Gun Control Advisory Board in coinjuction with the Ma. Chiefs of Police Association came up with a list of restrictions (None, Target&Hunting, Sporting, Employment) with definitions that they want issuing agencies to use. These definitions say specifically that people may carry to and from their destination. This is a direct quote from Chiefs Glidden's Firearms law book. This is the book which all issuing agencies refer to for matters relating to firearms law.
Target and Hunting: Restricts possession to the purpose of lawful recreational shooting or competition; for use in the lawful pursuit of game animals and birds; for personal protection in the home; and for the purpose of collecting (other than machine guns). Includes travel to and from activity location.
Most cities/towns have adopted these definitions but they are still only suggestions and there is no law requiring they be used. As long as these are the definitions that you were told apply you should be covered carrying to and from the range. Simply asking if the issuing agency uses the same restiction definitions that the Chiefs of Police Association approved should suffice
Last edited:
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2009
- Messages
- 4,910
- Likes
- 2,916
I think the confusion lies in the fact that they are issuing you a 'license to carry'. If said license to carry is issued for target and hunting, it would stand to reason that under those circumstances you can 'carry'.
Of course I totally understand that logic and Massachusetts Law have no relation to one another.
NOT concealed. And I still wouldn't want to be the test case.
Under these guidelines for an LTC-A you can carry concealed to and from your activity location. I agree I would not want to be the test case and judgement should be excercised. But If I had a LTC-A with a Target Restricion and I shot in a IDPA match I can carry that gun concealed to and from the range as long as my issing authority allows it
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2008
- Messages
- 567
- Likes
- 65
I think at one point I asked this question but then I thought, what's the point?
Why conceal carry in your car on the way to the range? You'll be more comfortable in the car without a gun on your hip. I usually don't stop on my way to the range and if I do it's quick and for gas.
If you would stop at the mall/video store/ liquor store/ wal-mart etc. on the way home I doubt that would be OK as far as the restriction goes.
Why conceal carry in your car on the way to the range? You'll be more comfortable in the car without a gun on your hip. I usually don't stop on my way to the range and if I do it's quick and for gas.
If you would stop at the mall/video store/ liquor store/ wal-mart etc. on the way home I doubt that would be OK as far as the restriction goes.
kevin9
NES Member
If one looks at the restriction statement, "Includes travel to and from activity location" logically, interpreting it to mean that concealed carry to and from the activity location is allowed actually makes sense:
Assuming travel to and from the activity location is not in a vehicle then open carry is already allowed regardless of the restriction and thus the non-superfluous plausible meaning is that it allows concealed carry in this case.
Assuming the travel is in a vehicle then open carry does not apply as carrying in a vehicle is considered to be concealed. Nor does the statement apply to transporting in the trunk or locked container; that's covered by different rules. Therefore, the interpretation that has any meaning is that this statement allows concealed carry.
All disclaimers apply: IANAL, YMMV, logic and MA law often do not coexist.
Sadly, that is a key point in this state!
Yes, I know the book well. I've had a copy of various editions for close to 10 years. I still don't see the crucial word carry anywhere there. OTOH, it does use the word possession, which is very different thing. You can legally possess a firearm in a lot of circumstances with different classes of license, but that's hardly the same as being able to carry a loaded firearm legally.
Ken
LTCRN
NES Member
This whole discussion is just the reason why the ability to restrict should be abolished. We all have met the requirements of the State and Federal licensing agencies policies / laws but then in this state, the state where our country's fight for freedom from the rule of one ( a KING) originated from, we allow a local KING to tell us what we can and can't do. It's pathetic when the towns all around me are GREEN, and their residents must pass through my town, a town of 8000, to get to a major interchange and are carrying. The number of out of towners traveling through with CC licenses is probably greater than the residents of the town who have LTC's. These KINGS are just power hungry ego maniacs and should really think abouth the needs of their citizens who are being GUARDED by a force of 1 on the midnight to 8AM shift and a force of 2-3 on all other shifts. Believe me if the SHTF while I'm outside my house, off my property, I will be definitely contacting one of the infamous three PATRIOTS who are members of this site for advice or guidance.
![[angry]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/008.gif "Angry [angry]")
LTC= License to Carry. Reason for issuance:
"Target and Hunting: Restricts possession to the purpose of lawful recreational shooting or competition; for use in the lawful pursuit of game animals and birds; for personal protection in the home; and for the purpose of collecting (other than machine guns). Includes travel to and from activity location.
"Sporting: Restricts possession to the purpose of lawful recreational shooting or competition; for use in the lawful pursuit of game animals and birds; for personal protection in the home; and for the purpose of collecting (other than machine guns); and for outdoor recreational activities such as hiking, camping, cross country skiing, or similar activities. Includes travel to and from activity location.
"Employment: Restricts possession to business owner engaged in business activities, or to an employee while engaged in work related activities, and maintaining proficiency, where the employer requires carrying of a firearm (i.e. armored car, security guard, etc.). Includes travel to and from activity location."
Each of these three "reasons for issuance" refers to various activities, and uses the phrase "Includes travel to and from activity location." To and from recreational shooting, to and from hunting, to and from camping, to and from engaging in work related activities, etc. For the sake of argument, just assume that this actually means what it seems to say, and you can carry to and from whichever.
Wouldn't this also include travel to and from the activity of engaging in personal protection in the home? Traveling from personal protection in the home to the movies, for example?
Disclaimer; I was just wondering, no I don't want to be the test case, I wouldn't suggest that anyone do this, I'm not a lawyer, and at this time of night I have no clear recollection of typing this. Oh, and the I didn't have sex with that woman thing, too.
"Target and Hunting: Restricts possession to the purpose of lawful recreational shooting or competition; for use in the lawful pursuit of game animals and birds; for personal protection in the home; and for the purpose of collecting (other than machine guns). Includes travel to and from activity location.
"Sporting: Restricts possession to the purpose of lawful recreational shooting or competition; for use in the lawful pursuit of game animals and birds; for personal protection in the home; and for the purpose of collecting (other than machine guns); and for outdoor recreational activities such as hiking, camping, cross country skiing, or similar activities. Includes travel to and from activity location.
"Employment: Restricts possession to business owner engaged in business activities, or to an employee while engaged in work related activities, and maintaining proficiency, where the employer requires carrying of a firearm (i.e. armored car, security guard, etc.). Includes travel to and from activity location."
Each of these three "reasons for issuance" refers to various activities, and uses the phrase "Includes travel to and from activity location." To and from recreational shooting, to and from hunting, to and from camping, to and from engaging in work related activities, etc. For the sake of argument, just assume that this actually means what it seems to say, and you can carry to and from whichever.
Wouldn't this also include travel to and from the activity of engaging in personal protection in the home? Traveling from personal protection in the home to the movies, for example?
Disclaimer; I was just wondering, no I don't want to be the test case, I wouldn't suggest that anyone do this, I'm not a lawyer, and at this time of night I have no clear recollection of typing this. Oh, and the I didn't have sex with that woman thing, too.
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2007
- Messages
- 11,135
- Likes
- 1,600
again, those are the definitions that the CHSB recommends police chiefs use, however, they have free ability to redefine as they choose.
Also, if you notice, only employment talks about the carrying of a firearm, sporting and T&H only talk about possession. Yes, it may be a license to carry, but once you've got restrictions it sort of negates that fact. Sort of how you can have a drivers license but have restrictions on it - ie, you can't drive w/o corrective lenses if thats your restriction, where even though you have a drivers license you can't drive w/o complying w/ restrictions
What book or website are these restriction definitions coming from?? Is there anyway of getting one somewhere? I would love to read it while waiting for my LTC to get in.
Thanks!
Thanks!
"Sporting: Restricts possession to the purpose of lawful recreational shooting or competition; for use in the lawful pursuit of game animals and birds; for personal protection in the home; and for the purpose of collecting (other than machine guns); and for outdoor recreational activities such as hiking, camping, cross country skiing, or similar activities. Includes travel to and from activity location.
1. Get Hiking boots
2. Wear said hiking boots all day
3. CC 90%..pulled over and questioned, I was chasing a Yellowed Bellied Sap Sucker..
Oh and for the record I find it very immature on behalf of our Legislators/Chiefs that if a person is found suitable enough to even qualify for a LTC-A which is the Goal here that one has to have a Restriction put on said License. Pure silliness, and confusing. I think it is high time we elect officials who are grown ups and do not cave in to silliness. We have grown Men and Woman who have managed to stay clean slate and under the radar if you will, and can think for themselves. This is the problem with the restrictions they want to do the thinking for you, because you decided you wanted to own a Gun ( HOW DARE YOU! ), you are considered the Black Sheep among many white ones...MANY!... Sad really...What needs to be done is to abolish the restrictions. The way the laws are written today if you Sneeze the wrong way it's a felony...end of LTC-A end of story.
Grow up Beacon Hill or Grow a set.. really.
1. Get Hiking boots
2. Wear said hiking boots all day
3. CC 90%..pulled over and questioned, I was chasing a Yellowed Bellied Sap Sucker..
Oh and for the record I find it very immature on behalf of our Legislators/Chiefs that if a person is found suitable enough to even qualify for a LTC-A which is the Goal here that one has to have a Restriction put on said License. Pure silliness, and confusing. I think it is high time we elect officials who are grown ups and do not cave in to silliness. We have grown Men and Woman who have managed to stay clean slate and under the radar if you will, and can think for themselves. This is the problem with the restrictions they want to do the thinking for you, because you decided you wanted to own a Gun ( HOW DARE YOU! ), you are considered the Black Sheep among many white ones...MANY!... Sad really...What needs to be done is to abolish the restrictions. The way the laws are written today if you Sneeze the wrong way it's a felony...end of LTC-A end of story.
Grow up Beacon Hill or Grow a set.. really.
Last edited:
Those are the 'recommended' definitions from the Firearms Record Bureau, through the MIRCS system. There is also a standard form letter issued by the FRB that lists these same definitions. I don't know of of any website that has a copy.
It means whatever the licensing officer wants it to mean. And he might change his mind.
That I agree with.
They come from the same place that marketing projections come from
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
.Restrictions are not defined in statute. The police chief/licensing officer can restrict you from carrying on alternate Tuesdays when the moon is more than half full.
As always, we discover that the language of the law is suffiently vague as to allow broad interpretation, and that interpretation will be made first by the issuing authority, second by the licensee, third by the arresting officer, and fourth by a judge.
Until these byzantine laws are repealed and replaced with commonsense laws which are consistent the concept of individual liberty and the Second Amendment, we'll continue to have this discussion.
As far as carry is concerned, the Heller decision didn't help us much. I think this problem will continue unresolved for a very long time, particularly in Massachusetts and other anti-freedom states.
The safest thing to do is to adhere to the strictest interpretation you can conceive of, however unpleasant it may seem.
So, how "safe" do you want to play it?
Until these byzantine laws are repealed and replaced with commonsense laws which are consistent the concept of individual liberty and the Second Amendment, we'll continue to have this discussion.
As far as carry is concerned, the Heller decision didn't help us much. I think this problem will continue unresolved for a very long time, particularly in Massachusetts and other anti-freedom states.
The safest thing to do is to adhere to the strictest interpretation you can conceive of, however unpleasant it may seem.
So, how "safe" do you want to play it?
Food for thought on the definitions vs reality.
A class B License to Carry, does not allow any type of carry, only the possession of Lo cap hand guns, and all long arms.
How about Commonwealth and there seems to be a giant lack of common sense.
Anyway just some food for thought.
A class B License to Carry, does not allow any type of carry, only the possession of Lo cap hand guns, and all long arms.
How about Commonwealth and there seems to be a giant lack of common sense.
Anyway just some food for thought.
If the laws were written in a way to be comprehensible to the average person, there'd be no reliable business for a large fraction of the legal profession. Since the closest to honest employment most legislators have ever ventured is the practice of law, there's not much chance of that happening, regardless of Supreme Court decisions or changes in the majority party.
Ken
