Low left problem

racer1245

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I have been shooting pistols for many years I'm a decent shot. Last fall I took a several self-defense and CC courses using my M&P Compact with iron sights. Mid-January I got a Hellcat OSP with Shield Red Dot and had trigger issues because of my fat finger engaging the safety so I upgraded to the PRP. No with the trigger. I did a lot of training with the Cat and always low left by 5-6" at 25 yards. Sometimes is even worse if I am not paying attention, sometimes better if I am concentrating. I read this was a common problem not because of the gun but because of the shooter. Plus now I am having that same issue with other guns and I did not have it before. I have 2 specific questions.
  1. I have been looking for ways to train with the Cat since it's my CCW. I think a combination of dry and live fire drills specifically to correct the problem will help. Any advice on what drills I should use? I don't want to give it up I really like it but if I can't fix the issue then I will have too trade it in.
  2. Besides CC I am also training with my Beretta 92 full size for competition. Since I am doing training on 2 completely different platforms at the same time how should I handle this? Unfortunately I am now having low left issues with the Beretta as well. Note a week ago I trained with the Cat then I picked up my 10mm Kimber 1911 I had not shot in about a year and put 10 rounds in a 1.5" group at 10 yards. That group was slightly left.
Thanks for your advice.
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I have been shooting pistols for many years I'm a decent shot. Last fall I took a several self-defense and CC courses using my M&P Compact with iron sights. Mid-January I got a Hellcat OSP with Shield Red Dot and had trigger issues because of my fat finger engaging the safety so I upgraded to the PRP. No with the trigger. I did a lot of training with the Cat and always low left by 5-6" at 25 yards. Sometimes is even worse if I am not paying attention, sometimes better if I am concentrating. I read this was a common problem not because of the gun but because of the shooter. Plus now I am having that same issue with other guns and I did not have it before. I have 2 specific questions.
  1. I have been looking for ways to train with the Cat since it's my CCW. I think a combination of dry and live fire drills specifically to correct the problem will help. Any advice on what drills I should use? I don't want to give it up I really like it but if I can't fix the issue then I will have too trade it in.
  2. Besides CC I am also training with my Beretta 92 full size for competition. Since I am doing training on 2 completely different platforms at the same time how should I handle this? Unfortunately I am now having low left issues with the Beretta as well. Note a week ago I trained with the Cat then I picked up my 10mm Kimber 1911 I had not shot in about a year and put 10 rounds in a 1.5" group at 10 yards. That group was slightly left.
Thanks for your advice.
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You're flinching.

Dry fire and ball & dummy drills until you stop.

You're probably right handed. Pay particular attention to your trigger finger going straight back. Maybe revisit the way you build your grip to improve your foundation.
 
You're flinching.

Dry fire and ball & dummy drills until you stop.

You're probably right handed. Pay particular attention to your trigger finger going straight back. Maybe revisit the way you build your grip to improve your foundation.
Adding to this.

I would focus on solving your problem with one gun first.

Then do the same for the other.
 
If you didn't have it before and have years of experience under your belt without the problem, is it possible the Hellcat is much smaller than your other pistols and its snappiness in comparison made you develop a bad habit?

I'm not a great pistol shot myself, so I'm not exactly in the position to give advice. However, all my fliers do go low left when I lose concentration and/or get sloppy with finger placement on the trigger. I find it is easier to lose finger placement on smaller guns where you can over-reach the trigger. But @Mesatchornug's advice is solid. Snap cap dry fire has improved my shooting just through reps and muscle memory.

 
You're flinching
an 80% probability is the usual flinching, other things to try: it is possible that you may do a glock low left thing - your trigger finger may not be deep enough and you kinda push the trigger with the either tip of the finger or the first joint - and that press pushes the gun a bit. you can try to insert finger on the trigger as far as possible and shoot a test mag - see if the issue improves.
but a flinch/grip is the 80%.
 
Sounds as if you’re possibly jerking the trigger or over-tightening your fingers.

If you have a trusted friend, you can set your stance and master grip and let them smoothly pull the trigger for you (standing to one side; of course). If their smooth trigger pull improves accuracy, then focus on your grip and trigger pull.

Edit: Many people with compact carry guns with shorter barrel length do not shoot them as well as full-sized pistols. As long as you’re in the A-zone at self-defense distances, a little down and to the left will still be an effective shot placement.
 
an 80% probability is the usual flinching, other things to try: it is possible that you may do a glock low left thing - your trigger finger may not be deep enough and you kinda push the trigger with the either tip of the finger or the first joint - and that press pushes the gun a bit. you can try to insert finger on the trigger as far as possible and shoot a test mag - see if the issue improves.
but a flinch/grip is the 80%.
This is interesting. Every competition shooting video I have seen always says to shoot with the tip of the finger (before the first joint).
 
an 80% probability is the usual flinching, other things to try: it is possible that you may do a glock low left thing - your trigger finger may not be deep enough and you kinda push the trigger with the either tip of the finger or the first joint - and that press pushes the gun a bit. you can try to insert finger on the trigger as far as possible and shoot a test mag - see if the issue improves.
but a flinch/grip is the 80%.
This is a good point. I could have been clearer about the trigger finger thing. And your tests is a great one - some people (e.g. Pat McNamara video below) find they're better at combat shooting if they use the second segment of the finger, rather than the pad. Eventually, if you keep doing the same thing and are not getting the results you want, it's time to try something different.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8JX2hZR_6g
 
This is interesting. Every competition shooting video I have seen always says to shoot with the tip of the finger (before the first joint).
Competition shooters teach competition techniques, (many of which are) born from slow-fire marksmanship. Everyone's body is different, sometimes we need to experiment to fit ourselves to our equipment...
 
This is interesting. Every competition shooting video I have seen always says to shoot with the tip of the finger (before the first joint).
depends upon a gun and/or trigger.
This is a good point. I could have been clearer about the trigger finger thing. And your tests is a great one - some people (e.g. Pat McNamara video below) find they're better at combat shooting if they use the second segment of the finger, rather than the pad. Eventually, if you keep doing the same thing and are not getting the results you want, it's time to try something different.
i always shoot glock with a second segment, on shadow2 it is better to use less of the finger - usually the joint, as the gun is a brick, plus i have fat grips on it.
 
BTDT and it's what the others are saying.

I never did the low-left thing until I got my first CC gun, a little Ruger LC9s. Snappy as hell compared to anything else I had shot much. What helped me was randomly mixing a few snap caps in the mags. I learned to load mags without looking. I used a mag loader. Then I would shuffle 2 mags so I was pretty sure my subconscious didn't know what to expect. I was sure I wasn't flinching because, you know, I don't flinch. Then I pulled the trigger on the first snap cap. It was humbling.
 
BTDT and it's what the others are saying.

I never did the low-left thing until I got my first CC gun, a little Ruger LC9s. Snappy as hell compared to anything else I had shot much. What helped me was randomly mixing a few snap caps in the mags. I learned to load mags without looking. I used a mag loader. Then I would shuffle 2 mags so I was pretty sure my subconscious didn't know what to expect. I was sure I wasn't flinching because, you know, I don't flinch. Then I pulled the trigger on the first snap cap. It was humbling.
None of us flinch. Except when we do. If I had the spoons, I'd do a supercut of every influencer on YouTube who's ever posted a flinch. Competitors, former Ranger/SEAL/Recon, everybody.

Unless you're a ransom rest, we all flinch...sometimes.
 
Eventually, if you keep doing the same thing and are not getting the results you want, it's time to try something different.
I'm reminded of an old teacher's saying: "Practice does not make perfect. Practice makes permanent."

Definitely try something different if what you're doing isn't working. Practicing the wrong thing could drive the problem in so deep it will take forever to un-do.

BTW, you have my sympathies. When I realized Mr. Flinchy was lurking in the back of my brain, the many 100s of 9mm rounds it took to drive him out cost less than $0.30ea.
 
maybe someone mentioned...i'm assuming you are training drawing and firing from a holstered pistol. this means your holster is different than the one you were use to with your shield i suspect. cant, positioning, angle etc. of the gun is now changed from what you have ingrained into your muscle memory to the point you are now grasping the gun after the draw ever so slightly differently. this may effect the point of impact because you are trying to shoot this newer gun with a grip that is not familiar to you. your brain is over compensating. hard to explain but you know what i'm trying to say.
 
I'm reminded of an old teacher's saying: "Practice does not make perfect. Practice makes permanent."

Definitely try something different if what you're doing isn't working. Practicing the wrong thing could drive the problem in so deep it will take forever to un-do.

BTW, you have my sympathies. When I realized Mr. Flinchy was lurking in the back of my brain, the many 100s of 9mm rounds it took to drive him out cost less than $0.30ea.
In a past life, teaching different skills, a friend used to interject that quote with "Perfect practice makes perfect."
 
It’s not always flinching. Occasionally the issue has to do with lateral force on trigger at time of break. This can be exaggerated in a smaller pistol. one test is to rotate the grip to allow trigger pull at different parts of index finger. I have found with some small pistols I have too much finger on the trigger and the sights are no longer in line w the long bones of my arm. It’s just another reason why I don’t carry or bother with anything other than full size pistols.
 
There is lots of good advice in this thread, especially dry fire and ball and dummy drills. But I want to add one more thing to that list, which is, get a .22.

I find that shooting a .22 is a great drill for improving all problems with pistolcraft. If you are flinching with centerfire, but you can't see the flinch due to recoil, then practicing dry fire is very helpful. You will most likely be able to see the movement, and then practice until you are able to control it. But shooting a .22 pistol give you an option that is sort of in between dry fire and shooting centerfire. You are really shooting, but the recoil is low enough that you are likely to see your movement. And unlike dry fire, if you are still making a mistake, you will know it for sure.

Another advantage is that shooting rimfire makes shooting a lot cheaper, and shooting more leads to big skill improvements over the long term.

For people in Massachusetts, I recommend getting a Ruger Mark pistol. These are solid pistols that will stand up to years of heavy use. There is also a substantial aftermarket if you like to modify things.

I not a fan of the smaller plastic .22 pistols. They feel small and cheap in the hand, and they are hard to shoot decently. But if you really prefer this style of pistol, then the Ruger SR22 is acceptable.

The OP is this thread might also consider a .22 conversion kit for the Beretta. I don't have experience with those, but I am told some of them are OK. And spending more time with the exact same grip and trigger is potentially an advantage.
 
Two dry-fire exercises to smooth out a trigger pull:
  1. Balance a coin on the top of the slide; also
  2. Balance a coin on the top of the slide.

Many people with compact carry guns with shorter barrel length do not shoot them as well as full-sized pistols. As long as you’re in the A-zone at self-defense distances, a little down and to the left will still be an effective shot placement.
So you're saying that
not every appendectomy scar at MCI Cedar Junction
is an appendectomy scar.

some people (e.g. Pat McNamara video below) find they're better at combat shooting if they use the second segment of the finger, rather than the pad. Eventually, if you keep doing the same thing and are not getting the results you want, it's time to try something different.
5cejol.jpg

I merely award (him) demerits for not saying what problem he solved
by changing trigger finger placement. It might be a valid solution
to a variety of different problems, but without knowing why he tried it,
it's just a random solution - like looking for the car keys under the streetlamp
because the light's better.

Small tools make anyone's hands look big?

Wait...strike that and reverse it. Yeah, the other thing.
Found while surfing actor Joey Diaz on IMDB this morning.
MV5BMjIzMjY4MTk2M15BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwNzQ3ODg3NQ@@._V1_.jpg


i have to do it. :)
You bastard - I came here to post that.[rofl2]

Here's the template,
so OP can print them himself for his next range session.
 
This is interesting. Every competition shooting video I have seen always says to shoot with the tip of the finger (before the first joint).
Not true. Brian Zins (many time NRA Precision Pistol champion) has a video demonstrating how and why he uses the first joint rather than the pad of the fingertip.

Ball-and-dummy is the best diagnostic test for all aspects of poor shooting including trigger snatch, flinch, and tightening grip, and the most effective cure. Done right, it doesn't cost very much in live ammo because the coach keeps feeding nearly all dummies until the shot execution is perfect.

Even better is to video the shooter's hand during the shot and analyzing the vid in slo-mo. That's an easy thing to do these days.
 
Last edited:
Not true. Brian Zins (many time NRA Precision Pistol champion) has a video demonstrating how and why he uses the first joint rather than the pad of the fingertip.

Ball-and-dummy is the best diagnostic test for all aspects of poor shooting including trigger snatch, flinch, and tightening grip, and the most effective cure. Done right, it doesn't cost very much in live ammo because the coach keeps feeding nearly all dummies until the shot execution is perfect.

Even better is to video the shooter's hand during the shot and analyzing the vid in slo-mo. That's an easy thing to do these days.
What is not true?
I said every video I have seen. I didnt watch Brian Zins video.

Jerry M uses the tip.
 
Two dry-fire exercises to smooth out a trigger pull:
  1. Balance a coin on the top of the slide; also
  2. Balance a coin on the top of the slide.
3. Balance a coin on the top of the front sight.
I merely award (him) demerits for not saying what problem he solved
by changing trigger finger placement. It might be a valid solution
to a variety of different problems, but without knowing why he tried it,
it's just a random solution - like looking for the car keys under the streetlamp
because the light's better.
I completely agree. I have only played with it a little bit, but didn't see a lot of change in my groups patterns. More fundamentals for me. But if it helps someone else, I'd be remiss to not share.

There's no possibility that it could be due to having a bunch of different guns with different Tigger timing, recoil patterns, or sights. No possible way.
You're dangerously close to implying that it's better to have just one gun...gives a guy a fright.
 
What is not true?
I said every video I have seen. I didnt watch Brian Zins video.

Jerry M uses the tip.

Slow fire techniques works well for slow fire, thats why they use them. Start shooting fast, I don't mean the rapid fire NRA but actual fast and some techniques no longer work.
 
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