Looking for some shooting advice

[GunCat]

As a quick background: I've had a handful of .308s (FN SPR, Ruger Precision, Rem 700s, etc) that I've been happy to get .75 or .50 inch groups at 100 yards. Got a 1.5in group at 200yards with a neighbor's 6.5 Creedmoor a few days ago. By no means am I a perfect shooter, but I'd like to think I'm not a terrible shot, with distances/calibers I'm familiar with.

Here's a 5-shot group at 100, a few years ago. Walked it a little, but not bad.



But recently, I've been noticing some pretty significant inconsistencies.

This is today's target, using my FN SPR A5M, with Vortex Crossfire 6-24x, at only 30 yards, from the prone. Don't mind the 50ft small bore target...I have a giant pile of them, might as well shoot at them.




No adjustments made to the scope. All the same ammo, HSM Match, 168gr. I didn't go left-right, just kinda shot at them randomly. However, any target that has more than one impact, those shots were sequential.

Tried a similar situation with my Ruger Precision. Felt like the shots were dancing around. Which kinda rules out scope/barrel issues, I'd think.

I get that I'll have the occasional flyer, or twitch a shot...but this seems like a lot? Some of these are 1.5inch off center...so around 5inches off at 100?

I dunno. Just seems like if I can group 1.5 at 200y, then at 30y, I shouldn't be seeing this random of shot patterns. Though that was off a table, vs prone.

But maybe I'm wrong? Maybe I'm having an issue when prone? Or I'm not as relaxed at a shorter distance, so I pull more shots? Maybe I'm just starting to suck as I get older?

Any suggestions? I don't mind taking a hit to my pride, but something's going astray, and I want to improve.

 

[pupchow]

Perhaps your reticle is covering a lot more of the target at close range, and precision is then sacrificed?

 

[granitestater]

Perhaps your vortex scope is Chinese made garbage. Get a real scope, Leopold or night force.

 

[GunCat]

Perhaps your reticle is covering a lot more of the target at close range, and precision is then sacrificed?

Not a bad thought, but both scopes are second focal plane.

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

There is a controversial school of though that some rifle/round combinations require a bit more room for the bullet to stabilize in flight after exiting the muzzle. For people who believe this is true, the argument is that a bullet immediately existing the muzzle, while traveling down the general desired path, will display wobble and yaw until it achieves some sort of prefect rotational stabilization, smoothing out the travel arc. If this is true, then it might explain close range discrepancies.

But like I said, it seems like a very controversial subject, where some really experienced people argue this point on both sides. Some swear by it, others say it is nonsense. Here is a really good article on the subject with lots of highly regarded people weighing in on it.

An Official Journal Of The NRA | Can a Rifle's Accuracy be More Consistent at Long Range than it is at Short Range?

I’ve heard more than one rifleman say that its possible for a rifle to be more accurate at long range than it is at short range. On first hearing this, I assumed they were talking about MOA, rather than actual group size.

www.americanhunter.org

 

[Compooky]

Was this prone with a crappy bipod?

 

[allen-1]

Have you had your eyes checked recently? Seriously. My lens prescription gets tweaked every year...

 

[GunCat]

Have you had your eyes checked recently? Seriously. My lens prescription gets tweaked every year...

If last year counts as recent, then yes. Full exam, with the gadget that does cornea thickness, etc. Slight astigmatism, corrected with glasses. Maybe I'm due for another visit.

There is a controversial school of though that some rifle/round combinations require a bit more room for the bullet to stabilize in flight after exiting the muzzle. For people who believe this is true, the argument is that a bullet immediately existing the muzzle, while traveling down the general desired path, will display wobble and yaw until it achieves some sort of prefect rotational stabilization, smoothing out the travel arc. If this is true, then it might explain close range discrepancies.

But like I said, it seems like a very controversial subject, where some really experienced people argue this point on both sides. Some swear by it, others say it is nonsense. Here is a really good article on the subject with lots of highly regarded people weighing in on it.

An Official Journal Of The NRA | Can a Rifle's Accuracy be More Consistent at Long Range than it is at Short Range?

I’ve heard more than one rifleman say that its possible for a rifle to be more accurate at long range than it is at short range. On first hearing this, I assumed they were talking about MOA, rather than actual group size.

www.americanhunter.org

Controversial is a good word for it. One of my friends suggested that it might be a matter of stabilization, and my intial instinct was to rule it out. But I've also seen tank rounds, arrows, etc at slow motion, and there's way more movement in flight than you'd think. I also ran a box of Prvi Partisan through the RPR....gave me a 3-4inch shotgun pattern, no consistency at all. Sure, it's not the most accurate stuff at range, but at 30y...seems a bit much.

Was this prone with a crappy bipod?

It was with a bipod, and isn't an Atlas or anything that would get a free pass as "not crappy." But it is solid, no cant, no wobble. Lowest height setting. But maybe I should try shooting with a sandbag?

I will haul a table/chair out to my backyard range...see if that provides any useful data/changes.

 

[mac1911]

As a quick background: I've had a handful of .308s (FN SPR, Ruger Precision, Rem 700s, etc) that I've been happy to get .75 or .50 inch groups at 100 yards. Got a 1.5in group at 200yards with a neighbor's 6.5 Creedmoor a few days ago. By no means am I a perfect shooter, but I'd like to think I'm not a terrible shot, with distances/calibers I'm familiar with.

Here's a 5-shot group at 100, a few years ago. Walked it a little, but not bad.

View attachment 382484

But recently, I've been noticing some pretty significant inconsistencies.

This is today's target, using my FN SPR A5M, with Vortex Crossfire 6-24x, at only 30 yards, from the prone. Don't mind the 50ft small bore target...I have a giant pile of them, might as well shoot at them.

View attachment 382483


No adjustments made to the scope. All the same ammo, HSM Match, 168gr. I didn't go left-right, just kinda shot at them randomly. However, any target that has more than one impact, those shots were sequential.

Tried a similar situation with my Ruger Precision. Felt like the shots were dancing around. Which kinda rules out scope/barrel issues, I'd think.

I get that I'll have the occasional flyer, or twitch a shot...but this seems like a lot? Some of these are 1.5inch off center...so around 5inches off at 100?

I dunno. Just seems like if I can group 1.5 at 200y, then at 30y, I shouldn't be seeing this random of shot patterns. Though that was bench rested, vs prone.

But maybe I'm wrong? Maybe I'm having an issue when prone? Or I'm not as relaxed at a shorter distance, so I pull more shots? Maybe I'm just starting to suck as I get older?

Any suggestions? I don't mind taking a hit to my pride, but something's going astray, and I want to improve.

Your shots seem to favor the left side
If your aiming dead center of the black bull and your hitting more shots left either you are influencing “rhe shot”
Or you need to rezero your scope?

Also parallax might be coming into play?
Scopes do funny things.
My guess , its just “ bad lighting “
Keep trying

 

[peterk123]

How about going out to a 100 yards, and shooting the exact same way. Theoretically, your patterns should be more exaggerated. I agree with @mac1911 you are favoring the left side. And maybe the ones that weren't were because they were toward the end of your string and maybe you were compensating??? Just throwing random ideas at ya.

 

[slap shot]

Same ammo same gun same position. Results inconsistent. I’d agree with the bipod being the cause. Try the sandbag and report back.

 

[Alan Hamman]

Breath deeply a few times, halfway through an exhale squeeze the trigger. Good habits can overcome the human factor. Chinese scopes can be a challenge, their quality control is nothing like in the US or Europe.

 

[MadatMarek]

Obviously you have the virus. Seriously all in the same day? Maybe just an off day.

 

[PatMcD]

30 yards is just too close. Will your scope focus/parallax-adjust that close?

 

[slap shot]

Breath deeply a few times, halfway through an exhale squeeze the trigger. Good habits can overcome the human factor. Chinese scopes can be a challenge, their quality control is nothing like in the US or Europe.

bad advice IMO. Always taught to gain NPOA, exhale fully, then squeeze the trigger. I could be wrong...

 

[mac1911]

bad advice IMO. Always taught to gain NPOA, exhale fully, then squeeze the trigger. I could be wrong...

We also assume fundamental skills where practiced. NPOA is often not practiced , physical manipulation or forcing a hold creates all sorts of problems.

 

[mac1911]

As a quick background: I've had a handful of .308s (FN SPR, Ruger Precision, Rem 700s, etc) that I've been happy to get .75 or .50 inch groups at 100 yards. Got a 1.5in group at 200yards with a neighbor's 6.5 Creedmoor a few days ago. By no means am I a perfect shooter, but I'd like to think I'm not a terrible shot, with distances/calibers I'm familiar with.

Here's a 5-shot group at 100, a few years ago. Walked it a little, but not bad.

View attachment 382484

But recently, I've been noticing some pretty significant inconsistencies.

This is today's target, using my FN SPR A5M, with Vortex Crossfire 6-24x, at only 30 yards, from the prone. Don't mind the 50ft small bore target...I have a giant pile of them, might as well shoot at them.

View attachment 382483


No adjustments made to the scope. All the same ammo, HSM Match, 168gr. I didn't go left-right, just kinda shot at them randomly. However, any target that has more than one impact, those shots were sequential.

Tried a similar situation with my Ruger Precision. Felt like the shots were dancing around. Which kinda rules out scope/barrel issues, I'd think.

I get that I'll have the occasional flyer, or twitch a shot...but this seems like a lot? Some of these are 1.5inch off center...so around 5inches off at 100?

I dunno. Just seems like if I can group 1.5 at 200y, then at 30y, I shouldn't be seeing this random of shot patterns. Though that was off a table, vs prone.

But maybe I'm wrong? Maybe I'm having an issue when prone? Or I'm not as relaxed at a shorter distance, so I pull more shots? Maybe I'm just starting to suck as I get older?

Any suggestions? I don't mind taking a hit to my pride, but something's going astray, and I want to improve.

ok im confused , what gun goes with what target and do you have the friends 6.5creedmore target?
Theres a few years between one target and another maybe your just getting old.

 

[FiremanBob]

Parallax could explain it. Do you have a solid, consistent cheek weld on every shot?

 

[SKumar]

I've been happy to get .75 or .50 inch groups at 100 yards.

Even scoped, benched, match-grade ammo, that is seriously impressive.

By no means am I a perfect shooter,

Yes you are

 

[AHM]

Parallax could explain it.

Coriolis effect?

Spoiler: P. S.

 

[GunCat]

ok im confused , what gun goes with what target and do you have the friends 6.5creedmore target?
Theres a few years between one target and another maybe your just getting old.

First target (blue with white center) is from a few years ago, with an FN SPR A2.
Multiple target was with my current FN SPR A5M.

Shots from the Creedmoor:



I totally accept that I might just be getting old. Happens to a lot of us.

bad advice IMO. Always taught to gain NPOA, exhale fully, then squeeze the trigger. I could be wrong...

We also assume fundamental skills where practiced. NPOA is often not practiced , physical manipulation or forcing a hold creates all sorts of problems.

Parallax could explain it. Do you have a solid, consistent cheek weld on every shot?

I'm really thinking the answer could be in here somewhere. Cheek weld is not as consistent as I'd like. The cheekpiece moves a bit as the screws don't hold it in place fully.

As far as NPOA/fundamentals, I just use what I did in the Marines. Close eyes, breathe a few times, open eyes, check sight picture. Breathe out, if it feels right in the natural pause, safety off, squeeze trigger. If not, safety back on, take a few breaths, wait 'til it's right. But, that's been some years as well, could just be out of practice. Might just need to go back to the fundamentals, make sure I'm not anticipating the shot too much, or forcing a hold. Certainly welcome to suggestions if I'm missing something, or doing something wrong.

Oh, and parallax goes down to 10yards (supposedly). Crossfire II 6-24x50 AO

I've run Vortex on some of my other rifles, and have been satisfied.... which isn't to say I swear by them, or that I'm not possibly running into issues with the current ones. If my shots are still wandering after sandbag/resting....I'll switch to a Leupold. Nightforce seems a bit overkill for 30y, though...

 

[mac1911]

First target (blue with white center) is from a few years ago, with an FN SPR A2.
Multiple target was with my current FN SPR A5M.

Shots from the Creedmoor:

View attachment 382604

I totally accept that I might just be getting old. Happens to a lot of us.







I'm really thinking the answer could be in here somewhere. Cheek weld is not as consistent as I'd like. The cheekpiece moves a bit as the screws don't hold it in place fully.

As far as NPOA/fundamentals, I just use what I did in the Marines. Close eyes, breathe a few times, open eyes, check sight picture. Breathe out, if it feels right in the natural pause, safety off, squeeze trigger. If not, safety back on, take a few breaths, wait 'til it's right. But, that's been some years as well, could just be out of practice. Might just need to go back to the fundamentals, make sure I'm not anticipating the shot too much, or forcing a hold. Certainly welcome to suggestions if I'm missing something, or doing something wrong.

Oh, and parallax goes down to 10yards (supposedly). Crossfire II 6-24x50 AO

I've run Vortex on some of my other rifles, and have been satisfied.... which isn't to say I swear by them, or that I'm not possibly running into issues with the current ones. If my shots are still wandering after sandbag/resting....I'll switch to a Leupold. Nightforce seems a bit overkill for 30y, though...

well if anything your impacts are somewhat consistent. You only 2 shots in the middle and the rest are sort of to the left.
i say just leave everything as is and shoot more.

 

[01906]

Just throwing this out there. How long has it been since you have shot on a consistent basis. Last year I was very consistent and on fire. Then hunting seasons came didn't shoot much October to January. Then rona hit
I have been fishing quite a bit, so not shooting as much. Just started shooting again. I suck!

 

[JAD]

First target (blue with white center) is from a few years ago, with an FN SPR A2.
Multiple target was with my current FN SPR A5M.

Shots from the Creedmoor:

View attachment 382604

I totally accept that I might just be getting old. Happens to a lot of us.







I'm really thinking the answer could be in here somewhere. Cheek weld is not as consistent as I'd like. The cheekpiece moves a bit as the screws don't hold it in place fully.

As far as NPOA/fundamentals, I just use what I did in the Marines. Close eyes, breathe a few times, open eyes, check sight picture. Breathe out, if it feels right in the natural pause, safety off, squeeze trigger. If not, safety back on, take a few breaths, wait 'til it's right. But, that's been some years as well, could just be out of practice. Might just need to go back to the fundamentals, make sure I'm not anticipating the shot too much, or forcing a hold. Certainly welcome to suggestions if I'm missing something, or doing something wrong.

Oh, and parallax goes down to 10yards (supposedly). Crossfire II 6-24x50 AO

I've run Vortex on some of my other rifles, and have been satisfied.... which isn't to say I swear by them, or that I'm not possibly running into issues with the current ones. If my shots are still wandering after sandbag/resting....I'll switch to a Leupold. Nightforce seems a bit overkill for 30y, though...

Even at 50 feet, that target is NOT forgiving. When I competed in smallbore rifle as a junior (on the A36 target, IIRC), one of the things that I learned to do during the prep/ dry fire periods was check my NPOA on each bull that I would be shooting from a given position. Sometimes even small issues with position that wouldn't be an issue on one bull could be an issue on another.

 

[Arto]

Could it be your eye is in different places each shot?
If you get a flip up scope cover for the rear lens & drill ~1/8" hole in it, it makes like a peep sight that makes sure your head is in the same place each shot

 

[FalArAk]

You should see the groups I get when I first go out...Then I get confident seeing the first group and every group after that is all over the place. I pack up everything, curse and leave the range and go ride my motorcycle.

Consistency is the key and more than likely your scopes are fine..I'll bet the best precision shooter in America could outshoot anyone using a Chinese made scope along as he gets practice with it.

 

[mac1911]

Even at 50 feet, that target is NOT forgiving. When I competed in smallbore rifle as a junior (on the A36 target, IIRC), one of the things that I learned to do during the prep/ dry fire periods was check my NPOA on each bull that I would be shooting from a given position. Sometimes even small issues with position that wouldn't be an issue on one bull could be an issue on another.

Another thing that is easy to do is get a 25-50 yards is easy mentality
Add in that little frustration you set up when your not hittinv the bull when you think you can.
i dont know much about the Fn SPR or what ammo the O P used. 762NATO is not known for its accuracy if thats what was used

 

[GunCat]

Another thing that is easy to do is get a 25-50 yards is easy mentality
Add in that little frustration you set up when your not hittinv the bull when you think you can.
i dont know much about the Fn SPR or what ammo the O P used. 762NATO is not known for its accuracy if thats what was used

The HSM Match is .308. Chose it a year or two ago, as the reviews were comparing it to Federal Gold Medal Match, but at a better price point (not cheap, just less expensive). Bought it as a bulk, all same lot.

My FN A5M has the same barrel as their A3G, which from their website: " Chambered in 308 Win., the A3G features a cold hammer-forged MIL-SPEC fluted barrel with hard-chromed bore and is held to +/- .001” headspace to produce and maintain a sub-half minute-of-angle (sub-½ MOA) accuracy standard at 100 yards. "

On my previous A2s, I had factory test groups, one that 0.29, and I think 0.45 at 100, using FGMM. I've attached a few factory groups from other rifles, as I can't find pictures of mine. Caveats: No, I don't expect to shoot this well. Yes, I know it's in a controlled environment. Yes, you can have a rifle that's worn, or a fluke, etc. Just showing these to speak on the potential accuracy of the rifles. One is a 0.14 group at 100. Yikes.



That said, I did go out and buy a Caldwell Lead Sled. I don't have a table to mount it on, so just positioned it on the ground. Not ideal, I know. Pretty awkward, and I know I goofed a few shots just trying to get a position on it. First time using one. Give me a few days, and I'll have a proper setup.

Results from the SPR:



Then did a 4-shot group with the RPR, which still had elevation/windage from the 200y a few weeks back:



And again, that's with me fiddling with the sled from the prone. Once I get a bench in place, I imagine those shots would clean up even further.

So, happily, I think we can rule out the rifles/scopes, and put the onus on me to improve my prone shooting skills. Mac, like you said, some of it may be ease of mentality, as I get into a "Oh, it's 30y, this should be a piece of cake," coupled with frustration when I get too lax and start pulling shots. Some could be bipod as well, so next time I shoot prone, I'll go sandbag instead.

Could it be your eye is in different places each shot?
If you get a flip up scope cover for the rear lens & drill ~1/8" hole in it, it makes like a peep sight that makes sure your head is in the same place each shot

This is the first time I've heard of this, and this is brilliant. I will definitely give this a try. Also making a shim for my cheekpiece so it stops moving on me.

You should see the groups I get when I first go out...Then I get confident seeing the first group and every group after that is all over the place. I pack up everything, curse and leave the range and go ride my motorcycle.

Consistency is the key and more than likely your scopes are fine..I'll bet the best precision shooter in America could outshoot anyone using a Chinese made scope along as he gets practice with it.

I don't have a motorcycle, so my go-to is steel targets at 10 yards with my pistols. "Clang, clang, clang. Yay, I hit something. Let's call it a day."

Just throwing this out there. How long has it been since you have shot on a consistent basis. Last year I was very consistent and on fire. Then hunting seasons came didn't shoot much October to January. Then rona hit
I have been fishing quite a bit, so not shooting as much. Just started shooting again. I suck!

It's been about a year since I've shot consistently, due to one thing or another. Been a crazy year. Guess the bicycle isn't as forgiving as I hoped.

So, maybe the verdict is that I should stop whining, and go practice more? Fair enough, haha. At least the weather has gotten nicer.

The suggestions/tips/tricks have been fantastic, and have really given me some good ideas on how to improve different aspects of my shooting.

 

[beaker]

bad advice IMO. Always taught to gain NPOA, exhale fully, then squeeze the trigger. I could be wrong...

close, I wouldn't think you want to exhale fully. You stop when your sight NPOA is over your target, which isn't always going to be at then end of an exhale (fully).

 

[bmac10]

30 yards is just too close. Will your scope focus/parallax-adjust that close?

+1 likely parallax error