Long range rifle choices.

For rifle selection to 600 yards, it really really depends on what you want to do.

A 5.56 AR with heavy bullets can be a good option. You can clean highpower targets at 600 with them.

…But they are much more susceptible to wind than other cartridges being discussed here. They are also harder to see impacts on steel than heavier/higher energy cartridges. And if your backdrop is a bunch of vegetation instead of a dirt berm, then you may not know if you actually hit the target or not so you don’t know what kind of corrections to make.

A 6mm or 6.5 cartridge would probably be better for a general purpose 600 yard rifle. Whether that be 6 ARC or 6.5 CM, depends on rifle form factor or ammo price you’re interested in.

If one of the goals is to get better at reading and dialing/holding wind, then yeah a 5.56 option is better. 5.56 is also better from a cost standpoint.

Also, if you already have a 5.56 rifle, you don’t need to go out and buy a different one for 600. Just go have fun and learn. Maybe get a new rifle in another caliber once you detect an area you find deficient with the 5.56 after trying it at 600.

Lastly, no you don’t need 35x for 1k yards. Oh goodness no. 18x is more than enough and I actually have spent more time dialed back go 10-12x for shooting 1k yard silhouettes.

Road_Clam said:
Then like others commented you would be best with 6.5 Creed . 6.5 Creed at 1000 yds is no problem. Reason being is that you can reach 1000 yds with a 308 but it gets more dependent on your rifle configuration and specific ammo choices. Generally speaking your going to need a longer 24"+ barrel and heavy 175 gr match grade ammo to stay consistent at 1000 yds. There's a term "transonic" and in certain equipment and ammo selection situations your bullet ballistics "could" be right at the transonic speeds at 1000 yds. Transonic is bad as it causes your bullet to travel inconsistent. I have a Savage 12 FTR in 308 and it's a 30" bbl and I shoot lighter 155 bullets at 2940 fps and I reach 1100 yds. Any 308 configuration can reach 800 yds no problem, 1000 yds can get a little tricky.
Click to expand...

Apparently the transonic transition inconsistency is a much rarer problem than previously thought:

View: https://youtube.com/watch?v=LaxXMJvbeH0
 
PappyM3 said:
For rifle selection to 600 yards, it really really depends on what you want to do.

A 5.56 AR with heavy bullets can be a good option. You can clean highpower targets at 600 with them.

…But they are much more susceptible to wind than other cartridges being discussed here. They are also harder to see impacts on steel than heavier/higher energy cartridges. And if your backdrop is a bunch of vegetation instead of a dirt berm, then you may not know if you actually hit the target or not so you don’t know what kind of corrections to make.

A 6mm or 6.5 cartridge would probably be better for a general purpose 600 yard rifle. Whether that be 6 ARC or 6.5 CM, depends on rifle form factor or ammo price you’re interested in.

If one of the goals is to get better at reading and dialing/holding wind, then yeah a 5.56 option is better. 5.56 is also better from a cost standpoint.

Also, if you already have a 5.56 rifle, you don’t need to go out and buy a different one for 600. Just go have fun and learn. Maybe get a new rifle in another caliber once you detect an area you find deficient with the 5.56 after trying it at 600.

Lastly, no you don’t need 35x for 1k yards. Oh goodness no. 18x is more than enough and I actually have spent more time dialed back go 10-12x for shooting 1k yard silhouettes.



Apparently the transonic transition inconsistency is a much rarer problem than previously thought:

View: https://youtube.com/watch?v=LaxXMJvbeH0
Click to expand...

I saw it first hand shooting the "Reach For A Thousand" instructional class at Sig . Two good shooters with R700 ACC-SD 20" BBL and they did outstanding out to 700 yds. Then when we were shooting at 1K their shot hits were very inconsistent. They were shooting Sig supplied FGMM ammo. The issue that day was Sig ran out of the FGMM 175 gr match ammo and the shooters were forced to use FGMM 168 gr ammo. It's well known that the 168 SMK (which is used for FGMM ammo) is only a short to mid range bullet profile. So this particular ammo, when paired with the shorter 20" BBL was going transonic unstable downrange.
 
Road_Clam said:
I saw it first hand shooting the "Reach For A Thousand" instructional class at Sig . Two good shooters with R700 ACC-SD 20" BBL and they did outstanding out to 700 yds. Then when we were shooting at 1K their shot hits were very inconsistent. They were shooting Sig supplied FGMM ammo. The issue that day was Sig ran out of the FGMM 175 gr match ammo and the shooters were forced to use FGMM 168 gr ammo. It's well known that the 168 SMK (which is used for FGMM ammo) is only a short to mid range bullet profile. So this particular ammo, when paired with the shorter 20" BBL was going transonic unstable downrange.
Click to expand...

What are you defining as inconsistent shots?

Regardless, you should watch the video I posted. ~40:30 is when they start to discuss transonic. It can happen, but it’s rare.

The Hornady ballistician did mention 168 SMK with certain twist rates sometimes exhibiting issues past 800 due to the magnus force. But through Doppler testing overall (not just 308), he found dynamic stability issues in the transonic region happened less than 1% of the time.

More common issues in the transonic region is just being more susceptible to wind and MV deviation. At the transonic end of a trajectory, initial muzzle velocity differences have a bigger effect in vertical dispersion.

A mere 10fps difference at the muzzle with the 168 SMK from a 20” will result in a 5” vertical dispersion at 1000 yards. But that would only be 2” at 700.

With just a 10 mph wind gust, at 700, the 168 SMK is drifting 54”, but at 1000 it’s drifting 128”. Looking at misreading the wind by only 3mph, the 168 SMK would have 5” more drift than the 175 SMK.

There are much more common, and significant issues in the transonic range, purely due to being so slow and more affected by wind/drop. Transonic instability is not the boogey man most believe it is… according to experimentation in controlled settings. I’m surprised too.
 
PappyM3 said:
What are you defining as inconsistent shots?

Regardless, you should watch the video I posted. ~40:30 is when they start to discuss transonic. It can happen, but it’s rare.

The Hornady ballistician did mention 168 SMK with certain twist rates sometimes exhibiting issues past 800 due to the magnus force. But through Doppler testing overall (not just 308), he found dynamic stability issues in the transonic region happened less than 1% of the time.

More common issues in the transonic region is just being more susceptible to wind and MV deviation. At the transonic end of a trajectory, initial muzzle velocity differences have a bigger effect in vertical dispersion.

A mere 10fps difference at the muzzle with the 168 SMK from a 20” will result in a 5” vertical dispersion at 1000 yards. But that would only be 2” at 700.

With just a 10 mph wind gust, at 700, the 168 SMK is drifting 54”, but at 1000 it’s drifting 128”. Looking at misreading the wind by only 3mph, the 168 SMK would have 5” more drift than the 175 SMK.

There are much more common, and significant issues in the transonic range, purely due to being so slow and more affected by wind/drop. Transonic instability is not the boogey man most believe it is… according to experimentation in controlled settings. I’m surprised too.
Click to expand...
When you shoot 1K at Sig they establish a "buddy" system , one shooter one spotter. I was paired with one of the ACC-SD rifle shooters. Sig uses a 48" square gong at 1K. My shooter was hitting the gong on random shots and others were complete misses. I was shooting 300WM and had consistent hits. Per my notes I was shooting about 2 MOA at 1K. Most all the other shooters were running 6.5CM and they too had excellent consistent hits on the plate.
 
PappyM3 said:
For rifle selection to 600 yards, it really really depends on what you want to do.

A 5.56 AR with heavy bullets can be a good option. You can clean highpower targets at 600 with them.

…But they are much more susceptible to wind than other cartridges being discussed here. They are also harder to see impacts on steel than heavier/higher energy cartridges. And if your backdrop is a bunch of vegetation instead of a dirt berm, then you may not know if you actually hit the target or not so you don’t know what kind of corrections to make.

A 6mm or 6.5 cartridge would probably be better for a general purpose 600 yard rifle. Whether that be 6 ARC or 6.5 CM, depends on rifle form factor or ammo price you’re interested in.

If one of the goals is to get better at reading and dialing/holding wind, then yeah a 5.56 option is better. 5.56 is also better from a cost standpoint.

Also, if you already have a 5.56 rifle, you don’t need to go out and buy a different one for 600. Just go have fun and learn. Maybe get a new rifle in another caliber once you detect an area you find deficient with the 5.56 after trying it at 600.

Lastly, no you don’t need 35x for 1k yards. Oh goodness no. 18x is more than enough and I actually have spent more time dialed back go 10-12x for shooting 1k yard silhouettes.



Apparently the transonic transition inconsistency is a much rarer problem than previously thought:

View: https://youtube.com/watch?v=LaxXMJvbeH0
Click to expand...


Great interview. Well worth the watch.
 
paul73 said:
and i spotted splashes with a 4x scope at a klik. as we ordered a soldier to hide next to targets with a radio.

i am done here, do all the hell you want, not my business.
Click to expand...

LOL, what? I don’t mean to be mean, but that sounds like a clown show.

As for Lukewarm_fuzz, I’ve seen him shoot very well at Granby. I’d take his word for what he can spot at 1k.

As for 15x at 1k, for others reading, this is roughly what it looks like. Taken from snipershide. As the thread it was in mentions, you may want more magnification for bench rest/F class. But if you’re shooting steel silhouettes, 10-18x will be fine.
IMG_2793.jpeg


Now, @paul73 if you were talking about something like benchrest, then I concede you may want more magnification like you’re recommending. My bias could be showing in responding to you.
 
lukewarm_fuzz said:
I’ve spotted .223 splashes and hits at 1250 with my 10x binos. Clarity is everything.
Click to expand...

not with my old nearsighted eyes. Glass quality good or bad is only as clear as the eyes looking through it. Also weather conditions based. One of my Sig 1k shooting classes i used a . 243 Win and it was foggy. My hits were very hard to identify at 1k. Even the class instructor was having spotting issues.
 
Road_Clam said:
not with my old nearsighted eyes. Glass quality good or bad is only as clear as the eyes looking through it. Also weather conditions based. One of my Sig 1k shooting classes i used a . 243 Win and it was foggy. My hits were very hard to identify at 1k. Even the class instructor was having spotting issues.
Click to expand...

Nearsightedness shouldn’t be a factor, as the optics put the image on a focal plane close to your face. If you need reading glasses, that can be a factor, but adjusting the diopter usually helps. Every eye is different though and we all see the image in scopes differently.

I bet a 48” gong is pretty hard to move, but yeah weather plays a big factor in how well you can see at distance. Not just fog/rain/dust, but also merely hot days.
 
50wt said:
what size targets are you hitting at 1k yards ?
Click to expand...
The club steel is 20” circle. My own target is 20” square plate

when I said I’m usually at 15x that is PRS match or practice setting as a good balance between quick target acquisition and seeing target well. I’ve gone to 20x on a 1000 yard target that was so impacted it appeared camouflaged.

I bought the 20” plate as it’s thinner and lighter than club steel. Moves more and rings louder. I’ll paint a 10” square in center to really try to hit. Frankly it usually stays truck most often
 
X-ring (or something like that) just came out with a youtube video about buying the cheapest 6.5CM rifle he could find (savage), getting a proper mount and scope, sighting it in, and finally shooting it at 1 mile. He did all that in under 24hrs, and under 30 rds ammo.
He says "shooting long distance has gotten too easy".

View: https://youtu.be/ryRIGkp485k?si=-KgyyDiAJyNkMpXz
 
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northny said:
The club steel is 20” circle. My own target is 20” square plate

when I said I’m usually at 15x that is PRS match or practice setting as a good balance between quick target acquisition and seeing target well. I’ve gone to 20x on a 1000 yard target that was so impacted it appeared camouflaged.

I bought the 20” plate as it’s thinner and lighter than club steel. Moves more and rings louder. I’ll paint a 10” square in center to really try to hit. Frankly it usually stays truck most often
Click to expand...

A light flashing indicator will help spot hits.
www.midwayusa.com

Caldwell Flash Bang Steel Target Hit Indicator

The Caldwell Flash Bang Target Hit Indicator brings new feedback to shooters when using steel targets. Flashing green LED lights are triggered by an...
www.midwayusa.com www.midwayusa.com
 
PatMcD said:
X-ring (or something like that) just came out with a youtube video about buying the cheapest 6.5CM rifle he could find (savage), getting a proper mount and scope, sighting it in, and finally shooting it at 1 mile. He did all that in under 24hrs, and under 30 rds ammo.
He says "shooting long distance has gotten too easy".
Click to expand...
the funny part of it is to remember the whole agitation about 'manbun' earlier around 2018 or so. now no one cares anymore. life goes on, and practical aspect of things takes over.

same as here - put people on ignore list and keep going. :) the dogs bark, but the caravan goes on.
 
paul73 said:
the funny part of it is to remember the whole agitation about 'manbun' earlier around 2018 or so. now no one cares anymore. life goes on, and practical aspect of things takes over.

same as here - put people on ignore list and keep going. :) the dogs bark, but the caravan goes on.
Click to expand...
I never understood the hate for a certain caliber. It's always from somebody who didn't understand ballistics. All ANY caliber does is propel a certain diameter bullet at a certain velocity.
I had a minor arguement this morning on fb "maine deer hunters" with a guy who said the 6.5cm is a trash caliber because his buddy shot a deer with one and never recovered it. He said 6.5 bullets don't work on deer until AFTER 600 yds. I had to end the conversation with "have a nice day".
 
PatMcD said:
X-ring (or something like that) just came out with a youtube video about buying the cheapest 6.5CM rifle he could find (savage), getting a proper mount and scope, sighting it in, and finally shooting it at 1 mile. He did all that in under 24hrs, and under 30 rds ammo.
He says "shooting long distance has gotten too easy".

View: https://youtu.be/ryRIGkp485k?si=-KgyyDiAJyNkMpXz
Click to expand...

Great video, thanks!!
 
PatMcD said:
I never understood the hate for a certain caliber. It's always from somebody who didn't understand ballistics. All ANY caliber does is propel a certain diameter bullet at a certain velocity.
I had a minor arguement this morning on fb "maine deer hunters" with a guy who said the 6.5cm is a trash caliber because his buddy shot a deer with one and never recovered it. He said 6.5 bullets don't work on deer until AFTER 600 yds. I had to end the conversation with "have a nice day".
Click to expand...

Oof. Apparently, little known fact, 6.5 CM is the only cartridge that actually INCREASES its energy over distance.

Gotta love when people base their entire opinion of something on a single third party anecdote. Couldn’t possibly be that his buddy gut-shot the deer.
 
BTSDOG said:
For the gun pics, iphone 12 pro max, and the target pic was with the longshot target cam app and the longshot target cam.
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Nice. I was thinking about getting one of those.

Also:

1. I just noticed where you are shooting. I love that range.

2. Aren't you worried the ring on the handguard could cause issues with accuracy?
 
paul73 said:
Other very important topic for a recreational shooter is the longevity of the barrel.
A main gripe about all those fast 3000fps calibers is how fast they wear out barrels. Competition crowd does not care as they treat them as consumables, but, it is a good question of how often you want to rebuild that rig, if ever.
Click to expand...

I'd say, OPs original topic - steel at 600, it's legit you could wear out a barrel. Gonna be awhile, but you could and I've been told 6.5 Creedmoor is better at it than .308.

You might choose nitride stainless to help mitigate, they make them, when I got into this sorta thinking that's what I did. Though partly I am just not used to looking at a shiny barrel.

I'm not sure about other platforms, but it's trivial to replace AR barrels. It'd be nothing to have a spare upper hanging around either. Really it's the glass you don't want to need to keep spares of :)

But I know you know all this, just maybe for the next guy.
 
teamRR said:
I'd say, OPs original topic - steel at 600, it's legit you could wear out a barrel. Gonna be awhile, but you could and I've been told 6.5 Creedmoor is better at it than .308.

You might choose nitride stainless to help mitigate, they make them, when I got into this sorta thinking that's what I did. Though partly I am just not used to looking at a shiny barrel.

I'm not sure about other platforms, but it's trivial to replace AR barrels. It'd be nothing to have a spare upper hanging around either. Really it's the glass you don't want to need to keep spares of :)

But I know you know all this, just maybe for the next guy.
Click to expand...

Talking to PRS shooters when I was getting ready to build my rig I consistently was told 2500-3000 rounds max on a 6.5 CM barrel. At the time I was like, that will take a while to shoot that many rounds. In actuality, not so long.
 
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