Long Guns in MA


People.......I never said an AR is not a good option. I'm saying different house layouts and locations have different optimal choices for long guns for home defense.

A shotgun is a good choice in a small home with close neighbors. Period.

It just drives me crazy when guys just blabber "ar" as the end all be all choice and then double down and say a shotgun is under powered on top of it.

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If your getting into NFA why not an SBR? Easier to shoot and more ammo on hand.

Btw who said anything about nfa? An 18.5 inch barrel is a great length for a hd shotty.
 
You asked what made it easier to shoot. That article I linked to gives the authors reasons of why they think it's easier.

People.......I never said an AR is not a good option. I'm saying different house layouts and locations have different optimal choices for long guns for home defense.

A shotgun is a good choice in a small home with close neighbors. Period.

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Btw who said anything about nfa? An 18.5 inch barrel is a great length for a hd shotty.
 
You asked what made it easier to shoot. That article I linked to gives the authors reasons of why they think it's easier.

I get it and understand it. . Just pointing out that I never said an AR is a poor choice. I'm saying there are instances where a shotgun is a better choice.
 
Stop. Just ****ing stop. Quit being a dolt and stop blowing smoke up peoples asses with total bullshit remarks.

Dick cheyney was 40 ****ing yards away from the guy when he shot him.
Do you have any experience at all with a shotgun? Distance to target is EVERYTHING. If you have good experience with a shotgun you'd know this.

Close in.......5-10 yards.....a shotgun is brutal and deadly. Why do you think the military issue them to troops in urban terrain? It ain't cuz they are pheasant and grouse hunting.....it's cuz a shotgun at close range is damn deadly. Key word.....close range.

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[rofl]
I've gone skeet shooting a couple of times.

So the military issues birdshot?

What makes it easier to shoot?

Less recoil, faster follow up shots.
 
I've gone skeet shooting a couple of times.

So the military issues birdshot?



Less recoil, faster follow up shots.

No they issue 00 buck. I said MY choice is number 4 high brass due to my small home and proximity to neighbors.

Spend some time with a shotgun at closer distances with a patterning board. Better yet......shoot some actual high brass loads not target loads and you'll begin to understand. Also spend a few minutes and watch the two vids. Birdshot in close range has a place in a hd shotgun.

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To me 18.5 is short enough [smile]
 
No they issue 00 buck. I said MY choice is number 4 high brass due to my small home and proximity to neighbors.

Spend some time with a shotgun at closer distances with a patterning board. Better yet......shoot some actual high brass loads not target loads and you'll begin to understand. Also spend a few minutes and watch the two vids. Birdshot in close range has a place in a hd shotgun.

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To me 18.5 is short enough [smile]

shotgun.jpg
 
I'm guessing the OP has fled by now. Great job, guys.

OP, I wouldn't know what to suggest; I learned to shoot rifles first, in the Army. That meant M16 rifles, and the standard BRM routine for many days under kind, polite drill sergeants before slinging lead. Dime-washer drill, sight picture exercises, breathing exercises... the works. Try to find a copy of FM 3-22; I'm working from memory, but I think that's the Army BRM manual.

My understanding is that most civilians start with .22 LR rifles, but I've got no idea where you'd go to get training.
 
I watched the videos and it confirmed what I already thought I knew about bird hunting loads...they would be god damn effective in a home defense situation. The longest shot in my house is actually close to 15 yards, but that's through a man door size interior entry from the exact front to the exact rear of the home (house is 48 feet deep.) The doorway creates a pinch point for anyone coming in, and that actually cuts my longest shot in half if the intruder chooses to go past my living room (and they would have to to get to the rest of the home.) I live in a neighborhood where the houses are pretty close...and there's often a 4 year old girl in the next room over from mine...over penetration is a major concern to me.

I'm glad at least one of you actually does research before confronting a situation that could inadvertently effect others in a life altering way. I'm in Worcester, so as a defender of my home I'm screwed either way, but might as well not have an innocent life on my conscience as well.
 
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I'm not really sure how accurate this is, but it's a cited source...so, sure!

I put a 5.56 round through a 1/2" steel plate once at 50 yards...that was enough to tell me just how powerful that little projectile really is. Yes, it tumbles and breaks up, but I can tell you that there is still a LOT of potential for something to go wrong after cruising through 10 or 20 inches of soft tissue.

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I'm guessing the OP has fled by now. Great job, guys.

OP, I wouldn't know what to suggest; I learned to shoot rifles first, in the Army. That meant M16 rifles, and the standard BRM routine for many days under kind, polite drill sergeants before slinging lead. Dime-washer drill, sight picture exercises, breathing exercises... the works. Try to find a copy of FM 3-22; I'm working from memory, but I think that's the Army BRM manual.

My understanding is that most civilians start with .22 LR rifles, but I've got no idea where you'd go to get training.

legitimate debate here, sir...this is about as civil as it gets on NES :D
 
I watched the videos and it confirmed what I already thought I knew about bird hunting loads...they would be god damn effective in a home defense situation. The longest shot in my house is actually close to 15 yards, but that's through a man door size interior entry from the exact front to the exact rear of the home (house is 48 feet deep.) The doorway creates a pinch point for anyone coming in, and that actually cuts my longest shot in half if the intruder chooses to go past my living room (and they would have to to get to the rest of the home.) I live in a neighborhood where the houses are pretty close...and there's often a 4 year old girl in the next room over from mine...over penetration is a major concern to me.

I'm glad at least one of you actually does research before confronting a situation that could inadvertently effect others in a life altering way. I'm in Worcester, so as a defender of my home I'm screwed either way, but might as well not have an innocent life on my conscience as well.

Paul Harrell puts out some good stuff.

Have you patterned your loads at 15 yards? That's where you learn the most.
 
Kel tec RFB with a red dot in .308 with Barnes 150 grain rr lp (reduced ricochet, limited penetration) loaded to 2700 fps. Mass legal, plentiful preban 20 round mags and just 26" long. [grin]
 
Please stop with the "Can't kill anything with birdshot " nonsense .
Here's a homework assignment for the obviously inexperienced but expert just the same crew.
Take a square of 1/2" plywood to the range this weekend and like Whacko said some #4 shot.
Measure off 10' ( The average HD range ) and fire.
Then consider your self educated.

When I did lived in a condo (Never again) I had people below , above and on either side.
My go to was an 18" double barrel coach gun and I had perfect confidence that if I had to use it, nothing in front of it was living.
 
Why not? High brass 1 1/4 ounce birdshot loads have their place in home defense. Best 13 minutes of information you'll ever get on buck vs bird shot in a hd gun is right below. If you watch this video and still think birdshot is a bad idea in all circumstances you just are not paying attention. Paul Harrell is my new favorite YouTube channel. Btw.....my shotgun is loaded with #4 high brass 12 gauge......longest shot self defense in my 960 square foot home is 7 yards!

Don't be so "closed minded" and realize your personal layout may not be everyones layout. And #4 high brass loads pack a whallop at 5 yards.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zaR1EVybUgc

Now I'm not gonna argue about shell choice, but what about "reduced recoil" 00 buck? I keep my 12ga loaded with Federal 00 Tactical. 1100FPS Copper Plated and with the flite control wad keeps a nice tight patter even out of an open choke.
 
What about in a small house? Remember with scatter guns the range to Target is very important. Sure if your target is 20 yards out birdshot will not have good ballistics but at 5-10?

Watch the Harrell vids I posted in 14 and 15 and tell me what you think.

If your longest shot due to the size of your home is 5-10 yards......high brass #4 will definitely do the trick.

It did better than I thought, I will concede that. 4 buck might be the most interesting compromise load.



At least this 4 buck penetrates gel enough.

All this said, I still am leaving the slugs in mine. I don't have have rapid access to it. Which means the odds of it being used in any "typical" HD situation are between slim and none. I might feel differently if I had quick release mount on my wall or something or I lived in NH (where I could basically leave the thing laying around ready to use... or in a simple mount.

-Mike
 
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Please stop with the "Can't kill anything with birdshot " nonsense .

Part of it is though when people say "Birdshot" they're not talking 4 buck or things like that, or even a 6 dove load with the high brass, they're instantly thinking of 7.5 or 8 shot, low brass, skeet/trap type round.

Half of the loads we're talking about in this thread, half of the gun shops don't even sell them. I think I still have some packs of CCI Lawman 4 buck from 10+ years ago, but to this day I've only ever seen it sold in a few places.

-Mike
 
http://www.how-i-did-it.org/drywall/index.html This test has an article about steel penetration you might find interesting.

I'm not really sure how accurate this is, but it's a cited source...so, sure!

I put a 5.56 round through a 1/2" steel plate once at 50 yards...that was enough to tell me just how powerful that little projectile really is. Yes, it tumbles and breaks up, but I can tell you that there is still a LOT of potential for something to go wrong after cruising through 10 or 20 inches of soft tissue.

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legitimate debate here, sir...this is about as civil as it gets on NES :D
 
legitimate debate here, sir...this is about as civil as it gets on NES :D

I know that well. But the OP's only got one post. He might wish it was zero now; it's not a bad thread, but little of it has anything to do with his question. Oh well.

Turns out I wasn't even right. It's apparently TC 3-22.9. Whatever.

Download it here as a PDF. Focus on chapters 6-8, then appendix D and E.
 
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Here is an actual rifle suggestion...It doesn't get a lot of love but the mini-14 is a good gun and still MA "friendly". Its not a bad place to start your love of rifles. Last I checked FS had them pretty cheap, worth a look.
 
Part of it is though when people say "Birdshot" they're not talking 4 buck or things like that, or even a 6 dove load with the high brass, they're instantly thinking of 7.5 or 8 shot, low brass, skeet/trap type round.

Half of the loads we're talking about in this thread, half of the gun shops don't even sell them. I think I still have some packs of CCI Lawman 4 buck from 10+ years ago, but to this day I've only ever seen it sold in a few places.

-Mike

The Remington green and yellow box...extended range....1 1/4 ounce of size 4 birdshot are quite powerful.

Want some fun......try the 3 inch nitro express 12 gauge loads. All available at Walmart.

I agree though that most people that don't hunt or don't spend much time with a shotgun think birdshot is all 1 ounce of size 8 and whimpy. Heavy field loads and high brass loads in size 4 birdshot are easy to come by and very effective at close range.
 
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Part of it is though when people say "Birdshot" they're not talking 4 buck or things like that, or even a 6 dove load with the high brass, they're instantly thinking of 7.5 or 8 shot, low brass, skeet/trap type round.

Half of the loads we're talking about in this thread, half of the gun shops don't even sell them. I think I still have some packs of CCI Lawman 4 buck from 10+ years ago, but to this day I've only ever seen it sold in a few places.

-Mike

3' mag #4 goose loads do some awful damage at close range.
At 10' most of it is still in the cup .
 
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