one-eyed Jack
Manufacturer
OK. Say we have 52 FFLs at the mill. Inspect one each week. Probably will take less than one hour including a coffee stop. Will that break the town? Jack.
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Littleton Residents - We need your help!!! - FFL Attack underway
- Thread starter Dennis in MA
- Start date
SFC13557
NES Member
NOPE, but we all know this has nothing to do with "FEES".
Asaltweapon
NES Member
The PD is already funded and the guys are already being paid.
If they qualify at a local range I hope that the fees charged double at a minimum.
If they qualify at a local range I hope that the fees charged double at a minimum.
Rockrivr1
NES Member
So they are coming to inspect now. Who knows what they will be "inspecting" and will they make up stuff as they go. Unless they are going to provide guidelines as to what they are inspecting they can make up whatever they want to force people out of business. Oh, you're too close to the door, your windows are not safe enough, your safe isn't of a high enough quality, you have dirt on the floor, etc etc etc. There will be no oversight on this so they can fine you for whatever they like. Oh, you have a bad attitude. Here's a $1000 fine.....
kevin9
NES Member
Thank you for the summary, however I will admit to still being confused. Did no one ask to speak against the article? In my experience, unless the moderator is not playing by the rules (which I have seen) people wishing to speak for and against do get a chance, up until everyone is done, or the meeting explicitly votes to close debate. This is particularly true when the moderator is informed ahead of time that there are people who wish to speak on an article, including non-residents.
As far as something "going to pass", I've also seen a town meeting completely flip, sometimes on a dime so to speak. It usually happens either with 1 or 2 articulate impassioned speakers, or a coordinated parade of speakers. Doesn't sound like that was even attempted, or was somehow still-born.
Ah well. It's all second-guessing, water under the bridge at this point. Probably not worth mush further discussion
Good luck on the next stage.
I was wondering about that. How do you prepare for an inspection unless the rules are clearly written down somewhere? Do other towns do this, and what tends to get "inspected" when this happens? Otherwise, the rules could be anything. Maybe you didn't provide rest rooms for all 87 genders, even though your business never involves anyone entering its physical location other than the one owner.
SFC13557
NES Member
according to a good source NO towns inspect their FFL's physical locations. This was started by a Littleton anti who read the MGL. There are NO rules which is the problem. When you have a corrupt one party State they can make stuff up as they go along. Kinda like the Dems in the swamp trying to Impeach Trump. Remember, Libs only follow rules they agree with because they are special and WE are deplorable.
zork51
NES Member
Well we're Toyota people in my family and I've always gone to Acton Toyota in Littleton (3 trucks). Maybe I should write Bob Moran (owner) a letter saying although I love you guys, I will be buying the next one in another town that treats ALL businesses fairly. Anyone from ANY town who does business in Littleton might do the same by contacting the businesses they frequent there, restaurants, etc.
The reality of town politics in MA is that most of those voting at TM don't give an S about businesses. A large business might have a little pull because of the taxes they pay, but all the others just don't matter to those who vote at TM. So before you stop doing business with anyone, ask them where they stand and check into ewhere the owner lives.
I'd also suggest, and those there can tell me if I'm wrong, that most at the TM thought they were just voting for fees for what was already happening. Not that they were treading new ground and becoming the first town to do this. And thus opening themselves up to expensive litigation.
A thought for the upcoming litigation.
The lack of discussion by the selectmen suggests that they discussed the article BEFORE their meeting. Discussions of articles is only supposed to take place at a public meeting. A freedom of information request needs to be filed for any and all communication to, from, and/or between the selectmen or any other town official and/or employee, or any member of the public, including, but not limited to, all member of the police department.
Many small towns have very lax recording of emails and frankly I've seen selectmen (in other towns, larger towns) totally unaware of the record keeping requirements and often use their own personal email. This makes their personal email subject to information requests. This why I, when I was an elected TM member and committee chair/member, I created and used only a separate email account. No one wants their personal email subject to inspection. You may find them singing a different tune when their personal communication is subject to public review.
Remember, they started this.
I'd also suggest, and those there can tell me if I'm wrong, that most at the TM thought they were just voting for fees for what was already happening. Not that they were treading new ground and becoming the first town to do this. And thus opening themselves up to expensive litigation.
A thought for the upcoming litigation.
The lack of discussion by the selectmen suggests that they discussed the article BEFORE their meeting. Discussions of articles is only supposed to take place at a public meeting. A freedom of information request needs to be filed for any and all communication to, from, and/or between the selectmen or any other town official and/or employee, or any member of the public, including, but not limited to, all member of the police department.
Many small towns have very lax recording of emails and frankly I've seen selectmen (in other towns, larger towns) totally unaware of the record keeping requirements and often use their own personal email. This makes their personal email subject to information requests. This why I, when I was an elected TM member and committee chair/member, I created and used only a separate email account. No one wants their personal email subject to inspection. You may find them singing a different tune when their personal communication is subject to public review.
Remember, they started this.
It's true that you'd be hard-pressed to find a town that actually does the inspections, and you're right: Someone in town is pressuring the police to do the inspections.
We're working towards defining the scope of the inspections, and we've actually made some progress. Too early to call anything a "win", but the inspections are shaping up to be a lot less onerous than they could be.
Since it is a bylaw amendment it should have to go to the AGs Office for review / acceptance prior to adoption by the Town. A long shot but perhaps worth having an attorney review to see if any defects or conflicts exist against existing state / federal laws or regulations.
Asaltweapon
NES Member
I don’t have the details but a friend is a FFL who has an annual inspection by the locals. I’m not aware of any fees.
SFC13557
NES Member
Went to my Chiropractor, DR.Dean, in Littleton yesterday. If this shit gets stupid I will definitely mention it to him and change chiro's.
SFC13557
NES Member
That's good news, hopefully the adults in the room will prevail and it will be business as usual.
I disagree.
While I get the idea of making the best of a bad situation, letting this stand WILL lead to other towns/cities passing similar laws. And you can bet some will use it as a way to shut down small FFLs. They (some other town) could easily say the fee is thousands $$ and you need a hardened stand alone building with x amount of open space around it, and a full time detail.
This is municipal level firearms control, there is no upside to letting it stand.
No.
MGL 140 123. is about gun dealers, not businesses in general.
General Law - Part I, Title XX, Chapter 140, Section 123
malegislature.gov
MGL C. 140 § 123 said:
Section 122 is the licensing of gun dealers.
Read the law that someone linked here (Chapter 140 Section 123). It spells out what's in the inspection. It's very specific, and it's not a building inspection or anything like that. They're going to look at your FA10s, signage, ensure that you're complying with MA storage law, and that your "inventory" is MA compliant. Your inventory consists of the guns that you have for sale to MA residents.
Does it include looking at 4473s, or is that not part of state regulation, therefore off limits?
"look at your FA10s" is absurd, 'cuz they're all computerized now. It's not like there's anything to look at.
And given that it's legal for an FFL to sell anything they want to someone out of state (through an FFL in the buyer's state, of course), what does "inspect inventory" even mean?
No 4473s, no bound book. If you read the law, they want you to keep a "sales record book" with all of the information contained on an FA10, so a 3-ring binder with copies of the FA10s fulfills the requirement. Although it's computerized, the FFL is required to print the FA10s and keep a copy.
Excellent question about the inventory. We need to hash that out.
one-eyed Jack
Manufacturer
It will fade away like everything else. The folks at the Littleton PD only worry about three things: How many vacation days left this year, how many years to retirement and where they parked their car. Meanwhile, Boston ATF is continuing to approve FFL applicants. Jack.
one-eyed Jack
Manufacturer
No. That level of ambition does not exist. PDs don't look to take on new work. Cuts into the coffee breaks. Jack.
one-eyed Jack
Manufacturer
No that level of ambition does not exist. PDs avoid new work. Cuts into the coffee breaks. Jack.
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It also says the commissioner of the department of criminal justice information services shall supply said record book. I asked them for one, you can probably guess how that went.
