Liability of single action autos.

[drew]

SA is alot easier to have a ND than a DA, simple reason being less travel and less force excertited to press the trigger. with proper training this wont be an issue even when addren/stress are involved because of muscle memory, derived from constant practice after being taught the right way to draw, engauge target/targets, secure area and reholster with out ever having a ND. If you are interested in some basic to novice training, let me know. regardless to being DA, SA or DAO, you just proper training.
~Drew

 

[P-14]

With proper training this wont be an issue even when addren/stress are involved because of muscle memory, derived from constant practice after being taught the right way to draw, engauge target/targets, secure area and reholster with out ever having a ND.

Remember: Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to destroy something......

 

[drew]

The finger off the trigger is an absolute must, I teach the two absolute musts are muzzle management and ttrigger finger discipline. If i'm not mistaken, most NDs happen when the shooter draws his weapon from the holster, or when the shooter reholsters the weapon, when it comes to "the shit hitting the fan moments" all motor skills go write out the window, the person caught up in "TSHTFM" chooses one of three reactions, Freezes, Fights or Flees. All of which, depending upon your training, is how you will react. How you train will determine how you fight, so always train the way you fight. If you train with your finger off the trigger until the exact moment you are ready to shoot, engrave this into muscle memory, it wont matter what action type you have.

 

[Mitch]

Most of the replies are mechanical I was talking legal

The question is I have an understanding that at least in this state (Massachusetts not confusion). If you carry SA and use it you are almost guaranteed to be held liable that the shooting was accidental and that the only way to carry is DA.

This is why most guns today are not SA they also have no hammers or the hammers are conceiled so you cannot move them. I do understand the original reason for no hammer is so it will not snag on cloths. But now almost everything I see forces some sort of DA.

I was taught never cock the hammer in self defence always shoot from DA.

 

[JimB]

my 2 cents

1. you could carry a revolver.

2. carry something that decocks, similar to a S&W 4513.

these are ready to go. one thing about revolvers vs bottom feeders
is they almost always do not jam.

JimB

 

[Urj]

You're going to deal with legal one way or another if you have to use your weapon in self defense. The action doesn't matter once the switch is pulled.

Don't let paranoia of what the prosecution IS going to argue with dictate which firearm you carry. If you're comfortable with a 1911 carry it cocked and locked. If you can handle a DAO then go for it. Do what's best for you.

I'd rather be alive to face the trial than dead in a gutter for the $10 in my wallet.

 

[jar]

The question is I have an understanding that at least in this state (Massachusetts not confusion). If you carry SA and use it you are almost guaranteed to be held liable that the shooting was accidental and that the only way to carry is DA.

This is why most guns today are not SA they also have no hammers or the hammers are conceiled so you cannot move them. I do understand the original reason for no hammer is so it will not snag on cloths. But now almost everything I see forces some sort of DA.

I was taught never cock the hammer in self defence always shoot from DA.

That 'understanding' is almost 100% bogus. I agree never manually cock the hammer, but it's not for legal reasons. There's nothing wrong with carrying an SA gun; a justified shoot is a justified shoot.

 

[BOBKATT]

If I were to carry and carry a pistol, it would be a single action 1911. I know some guys get good at those long heavy DA trigger pulls, but I just dont get it. If someone is worth shooting at they're worth shooting. I like to hit the intended target.

 

[putaholeinit]

IMHO carry what you shoot. It will be second nature when a threat is apparent what to do if you take stress out of the picture, which will come into play no matter which firearm you carry. I shoot a single action 1911 in USPSA and that is what I carry. I can draw recognize the target, threat or non-threat, disengage the safety, drive the gun forward and, if and only if, it is the target I am willing to shoot put my finger on the trigger and shoot. This is occuring during some degree of stress. I realize it does not reflect a real life situation but it does give some degree of practice on the steps that need to be accomplished when the need presents itself. It trains the brain. If you shoot a 1911 all the time and carry a Glock, you will have to go through an entirely different thought process when you need to use it. My theory is with all safeties on, a 1911 functioning properly, three things still have to happen to have an accidental discharge. A firm grip on the gun, safety disengaged, and finger on the the trigger. I am also a firm believer you should not be carrying any pistol unless you are proficient with it in practice, and practice often. You will be putting others as well as yourself at risk otherwise.

 

[Scrivener]

The question is I have an understanding that at least in this state (Massachusetts not confusion). If you carry SA and use it you are almost guaranteed to be held liable that the shooting was accidental and that the only way to carry is DA.

1. That is not a question, it is a statement.

2. You state no basis for your "understanding" and I do not believe there is one. As for the "accidental" shooting issue, compare ND's involving Glocks with those involving 1911's.

This is why most guns today are not SA they also have no hammers or the hammers are conceiled [sic] so you cannot move them. I do understand the original reason for no hammer is so it will not snag on cloths [sic]. But now almost everything I see forces some sort of DA.[/sic]

Seen the numbers of 1911's produced each year? How many manufacturers, such as SIG and S&W have ADDED 1911's to their customary DA/SA product line?

[sic]I was taught never cock the hammer in self defence [sic] always shoot from DA.

WHY would you cock the hammer on a DA pistol?

 

[Urj]

2. You state no basis for your "understanding" and I do not believe there is one. As for the "accidental" shooting issue, compare ND's involving Glocks with those involving 1911's.

Kaboooom!!!

 

[Jose]

In any sort of situation where I draw my gun, that is where my thumb is going to go and my safety is going to disengage...leaving me a single action trigger with no safety.

If you cannot control your thumb to disengage the safety at will (and not as a reflex or conditioned response), then you are right in that you should not carry a SA semi auto.

 

[Jose]

If the gun doesn't go bang on the first try, I'm going to tap rack every time. Different training for different guns is bad juju, and I question the viability of second strike anyway. A tap rack works every time. Second strike does nothing if the round is a total dud or there's no round in the chamber due to an unseated mag.

+1

 

[Jose]

ALL holsters should cover the trigger guard. I don't care if the gun has a million safeties and mechanical locks, the trigger guard needs to be covered.

Negative. There is a LONG history of peace officers carrying DA revolvers in holsters that leave the trigger completely exposed. All in 100% safety. Google Tom Threepersons.

El Paso Saddlery Tom Threepersons holsters

The "holster MUST cover the trigger guard" rule is catering to the LCD in USPSA and IDPA.

 

[Jose]

If I were to carry and carry a pistol, it would be a single action 1911. I know some guys get good at those long heavy DA trigger pulls, but I just dont get it. If someone is worth shooting at they're worth shooting. I like to hit the intended target.

DA handguns require that your trigger management technique be excellent.

 

[Underwhere]

If you cannot control your thumb to disengage the safety at will (and not as a reflex or conditioned response), then you are right in that you should not carry a SA semi auto.

Absolutely.

After using some 1911's in action shooting I realized that.
If I consciously made an effort my thumb would remain off of the safety.

However, that is how I hold a pistol when I shoot and if I draw a 1911 from a holster and acquire a sight, my thumb depresses the safety as that is the way I train to grip a 1911.

So that's why I don't carry SA.

 

[Scrivener]

Kaboooom!!!

Get a grip.

"KaBooms" have NOTHING to do with negligent discharges.

 

[LT1MCSS]

I know on my colt mustang pocket lite there is a notch where you can bring the hammer down but not have the hammer sit on the firing pin.

 

[Mitch]

Several things

I have a mustang in the manual states only three ways to carry.

Not loaded at all

Loaded with nothing in the chamber.

Cocked and locked, half cocked is not an option.

I have a 22 mini mag, mini revolver only good for up close and personnel like a can of mace but with a bigger bang. The only way to carry it is hammer down in a notch between two rounds. You must cock it to fire it.

ND? No discharge ?

You may want to cock a double action hand gun like a revolver for a cleaner shot in example just a head on the other side of a car at a good distance. Most shoot outs are three shots, three yards in three seconds. But for these mall / school type shootings you may need to get the bad guy with a short barrel and unusual distance. SA is a cleaner hammer drop.

 

[Scrivener]

ND? No discharge ?

Hardly.
NEGLIGENT Discharge.

Most shoot outs are three shots, three yards in three seconds.

Really. Got a cite for that?

Ayoob will tell you that what you often have is a running battle consisting of 2 or 3 such "three shot" encounters.

 

[Urj]

Get a grip.

"KaBooms" have NOTHING to do with negligent discharges.

True...but Glocks and KaBooms just go togethor so famously!

 

[BOBKATT]

DA handguns require that your trigger management technique be excellent.

Absolutely, and mine is not. A product of focusing most on bullseye and rifle disciplines, I suppose. But I'd rather not hassle with all that if needn't be. Call me lazy. I like 1911's and single action revolvers, and if I were to carry that's what I would carry.

 

[BOBKATT]

I know on my colt mustang pocket lite there is a notch where you can bring the hammer down but not have the hammer sit on the firing pin.

There is a notch. That is not what the notch should be used for. Forget the notch ever existed. This is neither safe nor efficient when it comes to carry options.

 

[jar]

Negative. There is a LONG history of peace officers carrying DA revolvers in holsters that leave the trigger completely exposed. All in 100% safety. Google Tom Threepersons.

The "holster MUST cover the trigger guard" rule is catering to the LCD in USPSA and IDPA.

No thanks. To each his own, but I'll never use a holster like that. I can see it being safe for peace officers who open carry. For concealment though, I see way to much chance of clothing catching on the trigger.

 

[Mitch]

Hardly.
NEGLIGENT Discharge.



Really. Got a cite for that?

Ayoob will tell you that what you often have is a running battle consisting of 2 or 3 such "three shot" encounters.

Thanks for the 411 on ND

I have no written info I could fall back on for gun fight statistics the 3 - 3- 3 rule was something I remember from class when I first got my license over twenty years ago. I did do a quick search and found some comment on what would have lead into that info on an FBI statistic at

http://northeastshooters.com/vbulle...589&highlight=gun+fight+statistics#post376589

And this does state that the quick close short battle may be a statistical statement of a very specific situation not a representation of the norm.

There are also other threads that state similar beliefs correct or not.

Not a full explanation but I have also read at some snub nose revolver training sites that alot is at touching distance.

 

[Half Cocked]

Never carry a gun.....half cocked

What did I ever do to you?

 

[LT1MCSS]

There is a notch. That is not what the notch should be used for. Forget the notch ever existed. This is neither safe nor efficient when it comes to carry options.

Well I guess that answers one question I had about the gun. I don't carry the mustang yet since I have no gotten a chance to shoot it since i bought it. When I bring it to the range I was going to experiment. Right now i still carry my g27

 

[fubar]

I sometimes carry a Mustang ( basically a .380 baby 1911 without grip safety ). I inherited it and therefore it wasn't the product of a thought out rationale for carry purposes.

I carried it cocked and locked for two weeks - unloaded - to see for myself if the safety would ever just click itself off. Never happened. Now I carry it loaded when I do carry it.

I prefer my full sized 1911 , though.

 

[Mitch]

How do you carry it

I sometimes carry a Mustang ( basically a .380 baby 1911 without grip safety ). I inherited it and therefore it wasn't the product of a thought out rationale for carry purposes.

I carried it cocked and locked for two weeks - unloaded - to see for myself if the safety would ever just click itself off. Never happened. Now I carry it loaded when I do carry it.

I prefer my full sized 1911 , though.

I have received a colt jr, colt government, mustang and commander the same way. The smaller ones are perfect pocket size. How do you carry the mustang?

 

[ateamrob]

I've carried a 1911, and I carry a Browning Hi-Power (same manual of arms) a decent amount. I have no problem carrying cocked and locked; it's how the guns were designed. Carrying at half cock is dangerous and 100% wrong. Lowering the hammer on a live round is asking for an ND. Carrying with an empty chamber turns a handgun into a handsgun. Do some force on force training and you'll never consider carrying with an empty chamber again.

agreed...... I have carried my Browning Hi Power before with no issues. Its just a mindset. However normally I carry an H&K USP compact 45 due to the reasons being discussed. However I carry my Glock 27 a lot too. Always Hot no matter what..... Thats the only way to go.
Basically it comes down to this. The most important safety on ANY firearm is "finger off the trigger until your on target and ready to fire" PERIOD!!!

thats the firearms instructor coming out of me.