Liability of single action autos.

Joined
Nov 22, 2007
Messages
53
Likes
2
Location
Dedham MA
Feedback: 0 / 0 / 0
I have a colt commander, colt jr and colt mustang. What are the liabilities of carrying a gun like this cocked and locked, half cocked or empty in the chamber verse a new double action auto.
 
liabilities? as in ...ND ? I would never carry a Colt jr C&L..the Commander is made for it, as is the Mustang, I believe. I have a Jr, had a Govt model..never had a Mustang.
 
A good shoot is a good shoot if you are talking about using any firearm in self-defense. Some prosecuters or civil suit attorneys will try and say otherwise, but a competent lawyer on your side will shut them down easy. Not carrying with a round chambered and the hammer cocked is making that gun a liability to your own safety if you ever have to use it.
 
There are those that believe that carrying a single action during tense situations may be somewhat dangerous.

In David Kenik's book he explains how he once had an accidental discharge with a single action auto during a competition and he believes that if under stress the likeliness of that happening would be even greater.

But with that being said, people do carry them.

I choose not to. I would rather have a lighter gun, more rounds and double action.
 
I carry a S&W 1911 and the safety comes of naturally on the drawstroke if you pratice. It stays on quite nicely too if that's a concern.
 
I carry a S&W 1911 and the safety comes of naturally on the drawstroke if you pratice. It stays on quite nicely too if that's a concern.

That is one of my concerns. I shoot my 1911 and my thumb rests quite naturally on the thumb safety.

In any sort of situation where I draw my gun, that is where my thumb is going to go and my safety is going to disengage...leaving me a single action trigger with no safety.
 
I've carried a 1911, and I carry a Browning Hi-Power (same manual of arms) a decent amount. I have no problem carrying cocked and locked; it's how the guns were designed. Carrying at half cock is dangerous and 100% wrong. Lowering the hammer on a live round is asking for an ND. Carrying with an empty chamber turns a handgun into a handsgun. Do some force on force training and you'll never consider carrying with an empty chamber again.
 
That is one of my concerns. I shoot my 1911 and my thumb rests quite naturally on the thumb safety.

In any sort of situation where I draw my gun, that is where my thumb is going to go and my safety is going to disengage...leaving me a single action trigger with no safety.

If you're not intending to shoot, keep your booger hook off the bang switch. Carrying a Glock with a standard connector is like carrying a 1911 with the safety off.
 
I have a colt commander, colt jr and colt mustang. What are the liabilities of carrying a gun like this cocked and locked, half cocked or empty in the chamber verse a new double action auto.

If it is a 1911 in good working order, it is designed to be carried "cocked & locked". With it's redundant safeties, it cannot discharge accidentally.
 
Only liability I see in C&L over DA is not having a second chance to hit the primer. At that point you should be going for tap/rack/recover anyway.
 
If the gun doesn't go bang on the first try, I'm going to tap rack every time. Different training for different guns is bad juju, and I question the viability of second strike anyway. A tap rack works every time. Second strike does nothing if the round is a total dud or there's no round in the chamber due to an unseated mag.
 
I don't think anyone is saying that 1911's are unreliable and safeties are liable to fail...


Back to the original question:
Never carry a gun half cocked, or with nothing in the chamber.

With that being said, the question centers around the action.

I see it as a simple question: If you had your finger on the trigger of a single action or double action gun, which one would you be more likely to accidentally discharge?
 
I don't think anyone is saying that 1911's are unreliable and safeties are liable to fail...


Back to the original question:
Never carry a gun half cocked, or with nothing in the chamber.

With that being said, the question centers around the action.

I see it as a simple question: If you had your finger on the trigger of a single action or double action gun, which one would you be more likely to accidentally discharge?

If your finger isn't on the trigger, its nearly impossible to have an accidental discharge. If you're committed to the point where your finger IS on the trigger, one should expect the weapon to discharge.
 
thisismysafety.jpg

This is my safety


Are you going to shoot the turd or just think about it?
 
If your finger isn't on the trigger, its nearly impossible to have an accidental discharge. If you're committed to the point where your finger IS on the trigger, one should expect the weapon to discharge.

Agreed. I believe the same. If your finger is off the trigger then you really don't have any chance of an accidental discharge.

However the question posed by the original poster was the liability of a single action firearm. Saying that there is no difference because your finger should be off the trigger is not relevant and doesn't answer his original question.

The difference between the SA and DA guns center on the trigger. In order to answer this guy's questions, our discussion should be based on that: the difference between SA and DA guns when your finger is on the trigger and liability differences.

I think everyone agrees that if your finger is not on the trigger it makes no difference what kind of gun you have.


With that being said, I make my next comments with the assumption of the finger being on the trigger:

I believe in the idea of trained responses and involuntary human reactions.

We practice shooting at the range.
You load, you draw, you aim, you fire. Over and over. Thousands of rounds.
We learn how to do this instinctively. (I'm not saying every time we draw a gun we fire)

My claim:
If you're in a stressful situation and your finger is on the trigger of a gun you have more a chance of an accidental discharge with a SA than with a DA.
 
I read something in one of Massad Ayoobs articles in one of those gun pornos that mentioned a case that relates to this. IIRC, an officer was doing a raid and carrying a gun that was a conventional double action with a de-cocker. He had the gun cocked in single-action mode, and some lawyer for the family of a criminal that was shot and killed argued that the officer's departmental training didn't include cocking his gun into single-action mode before a raid.

But, since (I'm assuming) that your guns aren't department issued duty weapons that you recieved a certain kind of training on, and since chances are you won't be doing a raid of a house with your license to carry, you should be all set.

IMHO, keep your finger out of the trigger guard and away from the trigger until it's time to fire, remember muzzle discipline and be smart with your guns.
 
1) With any carry pistol, the holster choice is paramount. If you have a Glock or any pistol based on this concept, the holster should cover the trigger guard. This is very important if carrying Condition 1. With a 1911 or any SA auto, you have to make sure that your carry position on your waist and daily movement won't cause the safety to come off. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR A ROUND GOING OFF IN YOUR GUN!

2) Take a class or 2 for carry/tactical pistol so you can start the process of learning the right way to shoot and deploy your pistol. Yes, I realize that some of us haven't and don't plan on taking a class... how do you know what you'll do under stress? I caught myself Sunday drawing from the holster against what I learned in the class and kicked myself for doing it!

3) Mr. Pistol goes bang when the trigger is pulled - keep your booger hook out of the trigger guard if you don't want it to make noise. You carry a 1911 with you, you need to know that gun like it is an extension of your arm and mind and know what it takes to make it go boom. This is the same with any pistol, even a Glock with a stock connector.

Joe R.
 
1) With any carry pistol, the holster choice is paramount. If you have a Glock or any pistol based on this concept, the holster should cover the trigger guard.

As long as by 'this concept' you mean has a trigger that causes it to fire, I agree. ALL holsters should cover the trigger guard. I don't care if the gun has a million safeties and mechanical locks, the trigger guard needs to be covered.
 
A SA pistol typically has a lighter trigger with less take up than a DA pistol. With all safeties disengaged, a SA pistol will require less movement of the trigger finger to result in a shot being fired. Removing all other variables (level of training, familiarity with the firearm, etc.), a SA pistol would be more likely to result in a ND. For this reason, what pretty much everyone has said so far is true.
If you are not 100% comfortable with a firearm, don't carry it.
 
Stress the proper holster.

I had a holster for my 1911 that would rub the thumb safety.

Almost 100 percent of the time I would look down to see the safety disengaged.

Not a good thing.
 
If you're trained, practice with a holstered unloaded single action cocked-n-locked at home. And if you are confident to carry and handle it, then do it.

They are made for cocked and locked carry.
 
As long as by 'this concept' you mean has a trigger that causes it to fire, I agree. ALL holsters should cover the trigger guard. I don't care if the gun has a million safeties and mechanical locks, the trigger guard needs to be covered.


Yes, that is what I meant.

Joe R.
 
Interesting how we wander back and forth around the original question posed re SA v DA.

1911's , Browning GP35's etc are designed to be carried cocked and locked, which immediately puts them in SA. This is fine, providing you are fully aware of what that means should, God forbid, you have to draw the firearm from its holster in a threat situation. Let me assure folks that, psychologically / physically, you will not react the same way under the influence of stress ( someone trying to kill you) and adrenaline that you do at the range or facing down an IDPA course of fire. You may not be aware of where your trigger finger is and motor reflexes can become unpredictable...i.e you may become a tad twitchy - if you are trying to get out of a sticky situation but not shoot, then a low trigger force pull could ( and again I say could) result in an AD.

I chose to carry DA firearms ( Sig 229 / 220 or Walther P99c among others) as the extra force for the first DA trigger pull gives me a margin in case of the twitches in a high stress adrenaline pumped situation. I emphasise again that contemplating the act in the comfort of your armchair or at the range is no preparation for the bizarre things that high stress can and will have on your psychological and physiological state...

There is nothing wrong with carrying C&L providing those that do are aware of the possibilities. Again, if you ain't comfortable carrying a firearm, don't carry. If you carry, understand what that means.
 
I forgot what they call it, but many holsters can be purchased with a section of leather that covers the safety. I have a Wilson's Combat "summer special" that has this high back which is molded around a weapon on "safe". It basically makes it impossible(Murphy's Law's[thinking]) to have the safety come off while its seated in the holster. For in the IWB holsters this is also a nice feature because it provides a barrier between your skin and the weapon(No pinching).[grin]
 
That is one of my concerns. I shoot my 1911 and my thumb rests quite naturally on the thumb safety.

In any sort of situation where I draw my gun, that is where my thumb is going to go and my safety is going to disengage...leaving me a single action trigger with no safety.

The safety is in your head! I don't carry it but I keep my 1911 stored cocked and locked. Don't want to have to chamber if I ever need it for several reasons: time it takes to do so and the noise associated with it.
 
I forgot what they call it, but many holsters can be purchased with a section of leather that covers the safety. I have a Wilson's Combat "summer special" that has this high back which is molded around a weapon on "safe". It basically makes it impossible(Murphy's Law's[thinking]) to have the safety come off while its seated in the holster. For in the IWB holsters this is also a nice feature because it provides a barrier between your skin and the weapon(No pinching).[grin]

i think it's called "body shield" or "sweat shield"

i have a Don Hume P.C.C.H like that for my 1911 and one on back order for my G23 -

it's nice!
 
Back
Top Bottom