Less Lethal

[EddieCoyle]

I agree with most of the posters here.

However, if you still want a less lethal round, why not a low-brass #8 shot target round? It's less lethal at distance, but if the BG is stupid enough to charge you, it'll get the job done at very close range.

 

[MasterShinken]

Shooting someone in a defense situation means that you are in direct threat of your life or someone you are willing to protects life (leaving out property to negate debate), this means theres a good chance they want to kill you/someone close to you. why bitch slap someone that's going to turn around and stab you. if you need them down, you need to put them down and quick, anything that wont give you this result damn quick is nothing more than a liability to your and your loved ones lives..

 

[ryan81986]

I want some LTL rounds (bean bags, etc..) just so I can say I have them. Not to actually use.

 

[jhblaze1]

If you are firing your shotgun in self defense it better be a situation justifying deadly force. If deadly force is justified then you should be using deadly force.

unless you're a cop...then you can shoot rubber bullets and bean bags into rowdy crowds all you want even if your life isn't in danger...













sorry, HC, just ribbing ya

 

[ztargetshooter]

What about in the situation of a hostile but unarmed intruder?

Commercial LL ammo may not be able to knock down the cracked out and drunk meth addicts of our dreams, but I would think in an unarmed intruder situation, if you then had to follow up with 00 it would be easier to call it justified.

As far as I think the OP was concerned, recently there was an article posted on this forum about some intoxicated college student who was banging on his neighbors door. The neighbor foolishly let the intoxicated guy in who then wanted to attack him thinking he was in his own house. The homeowner shot the guy dead with his 9mm. This shooting was justified I believe.

If the homeowner had a shotgun with a bean bag as a first round could it have ended differently? I wouldn't doubt it.

 

[Ray-500]

Shooting someone in a defense situation means that you are in direct threat of your life or someone you are willing to protects life (leaving out property to negate debate), this means theres a good chance they want to kill you/someone close to you. why bitch slap someone that's going to turn around and stab you. if you need them down, you need to put them down and quick, anything that wont give you this result damn quick is nothing more than a liability to your and your loved ones lives..

Thank you for your common sense. Who of us literally "wants" to shoot anyone? If push comes to shove, especially in the home environment, is someone going to think about "legality"? I hope not.

Intruder into home = Dead Body. Call 911 to report it.

 

[MadRussian]

I was just thinking about this wanted to mention something i didn't notice...

Bullet over-penetration! There is always a chance that you'll miss and I would think that a been bag wouldn't go as far as a slug or hollow point when it comes to walls/doors/windows/etc...

Too often do we hear about people and KIDS being killed by stray rounds and if I'm shooting an intruder in my house I would think a been bag would be as just effective as a bullet with much less collateral damage!

What do you guys think...?

 

[cekim]

i think you should stand 3 yards away from me while i point a pistol in your face in the middle of the night. you're in your boxers. you're still half asleep. you've managed to retreive your firearm.

then let's talk about over-penetration, b.s. news stories that you're not citing, etc.

Perhaps a chorus of cum by yah would slow them down?

 

[EddieCoyle]

Too often do we hear about people and KIDS being killed by stray rounds...

Show me instances of this 'often' happening when a law abiding citizen defends himself (as opposed to gangbangers on a drive by). If you convince me that it happens 'often', I'll buy you a shotgun and a can of beanbag rounds.

 

[705squat]

Intruder into home = Dead Body. Call 911 to report it.

That's the bottom line.

 

[MadRussian]

wow, you guys are ripping into me on this one...

first, i was a little melodramatic on the "too often" thing

But here is the thing - i live in a condo-type complex where i have neighbors to either side of me. if i come down stairs with a weapon after hearing something in the middle of the night and as Timber put it:

i think you should stand 3 yards away from me while i point a pistol in your face in the middle of the night. you're in your boxers. you're still half asleep. you've managed to retreive your firearm.

what's the likely hood that my first round will be on target?
I have no problem pointing a weapon at someone and being ready to shoot (wouldn't be the first time).
and lets say i have a slug and i miss or i have 00 buck and some bbs miss him and go into the drywall. now i have to deal with the collateral damage of what ever is on the other side of the wall.
and at 3 yards i think you can forget about the "less" part in less-then-lethal.
At this point I already have to deal with discharging a firearms, i don't want to deal with more shit on top of that...

 

[Jose]

the way I see it... less than lethal rounds are behavior modification rounds and eliminate intent to kill.

Lethal ammunition does not imply intent to kill. It simply implies intent to stop. If death is a by product, oh well........

 

[Jose]

well in your case, or anyone asking that question, - probably zero. you'll be too busy grasing around for the tampon ripcord between your legs that will parachute you back into la la land.

 

[cekim]

wow, you guys are ripping into me on this one...

"Lighten up... Francis..." -Sgt Hulka

In addition to Timber's point, the idea of "less lethal" is that it can be used to subdue a "less lethal" threat without very deadly force...

If it was "always appropriate" to substitute bean bags, then the police would just trade in their buck-shot and go whole hog bean bag...

You don't know enough about the nature of "the threat" you are going to face right now to say that "less lethal" would be appropriate...

As such, I'd think you want as lethal as possible...

Shotgun - live it learn it love it... If you want to be "careful" use smaller ball instead of buck as described in prior posts, but don't remove the lethal option before the poop even hits the fan...

p.s. oh, and if you are worried about hitting on that first shot - go practice more - that's the fun part!

 

[ryan81986]

I wouldn't be too worried about over-penetration with 00 buck.

 

[MadRussian]

Here is a question for you Timber, how many times have you done stress shooting? drew your weapon in self defense? or fired a round outside of the range?
What makes you so sure that your first round will be on target?

 

[RI_John]

Here is a question for you Timber, how many times have you done stress shooting? drew your weapon in self defense? or fired a round outside of the range?
What makes you so sure that your first round will be on target?

Dude, you're effing with the wrong dude tonight!

 

[MadRussian]

oh, and if i come up as being offended, Im not. I'm just bringing an idea up for discussion to learn something new.

 

[EddieCoyle]

Instead of a beanbag, here's the (masturbatory-self-quoting) solution for you as a worried apartment dweller:

I agree with most of the posters here.

However, if you still want a less lethal round, why not a low-brass #8 shot target round? It's less lethal at distance, but if the BG is stupid enough to charge you, it'll get the job done at very close range.

It won't go through a wall, it's way less expensive than a bean bag round (so you can practice), and more deadly than a bean bag at very close range.

ETA: If you stop with the "often killing children" crap, people will be less likely to think you're a troll. Just sayin'...

 

[Fixxah]

Ask Victoria Snelgrove about LL rounds.

If you wound or blind the BG, who loses their house? The riot where she was killed was out of control but I think they should have used OC on the crowds followed by a few kicks from the horses as the crowds flee.

How about one with a guitar string and weights?

 

[Alchemist17]

I have some LL 12ga - varies from bean-bag to rubber buck/ball shot to rubber finned projectiles. I fully agree with everyone as to the use in the current situation being fraught with legal complications. My reasons for having it are two-fold.

First, it's a hedge against a SHTF or other breakdown where law enforcement may be overwhelmed or not available. In such a situation I would like the option to be less lethal if I think it's the right thing to do.

Second, I like the option for use against wildlife if necessary. I live in an area that is suburban but has enough wild area adjoining that threats like "tame" coyotes, racoons, and bears are not out of the question. Less lethal rounds give me additional options to drive them off while reducing risk at range or from ricochet. It's not zero risk, but it is lower risk than a slug or 00 buck.

 

[EddieCoyle]

because it doesn't get the job done. a long, long time ago we had a guy come into the ER at CMC at 3:00 am who'd been shot with that at nearly point blank range through his picture window. something like 30 odd pellets directly in his heart. they left him in ICU on antibiotics while the pellets pushed themselves out of his heart muscle and into his chest cavity for three weeks. he lived.

You made my point. No. 8 shot will kill only at close range, and not through a wall (or window).

Not that I agree with this premise... If you're going to shoot, don't shoot to inconvenience.

 

[EddieCoyle]

Second, I like the option for use against wildlife if necessary. I live in an area that is suburban but has enough wild area adjoining that threats like "tame" coyotes, racoons, and bears are not out of the question. Less lethal rounds give me additional options to drive them off while reducing risk at range or from ricochet. It's not zero risk, but it is lower risk than a slug or 00 buck.

Wow.

 

[Dench]

The less lethal ammo is intended to break up riots, not shoot identified threats / targets.

I respect your stance, but if someone wont budge to a gun pointed at them, they probably mean business.

chetd is right.

 

[william_munny]

Less lethal is a little too close to "shoot to wound", in my opinion (it's actually even a step below that, now that I think about it), and wounding doesn't necessarily remove a crack head with a hard-on for your wallet as a threat. If you're shooting to stop someone, there's no better way to guarantee their stop-age than full on lead.

If you bought your guns with defense in mind and you have a problem with having a bad guy's demise on your conscience, just sell your guns now. To me.

 

[hicksonj]

Ug... this isn't that complex...

Force that causes death is lethal force (with some irrelevant caveats). Therefore, if you kill with a "less than lethal" round, you used lethal force, irregardless of what the LTL packaging says.

The only explainable time someone would use this supposed LTL force is to fend off a non-life-threatening defensive situation. Using LTL ammo to fend off lethal force is just patent idiocy. But remember, LTL can be lethal.

So... LTL rounds present an unnecessary criminal/civil liability in a defensive weapon. If you feel like being a hero and 12ga-cornhole some trespasser in your back yard, let me know.

 

[MassMark]

Mama Mia....

Look - I'm no self defense expert and don't pretend to be. For whatever it's worth, my opinion is "less lethal" rounds are a gigantic mistake. All too often, people tend to relate an actual home defense scenario with one they've seen acted out on TV. The chance of a wild-west shootout in your living room are slim to nil....Think of it this way:

It's 2:18 in the morning. Someone kicks your door in. You spring from your bed - groggy with sleep and reach for your home defense weapon. If you're really a grass-muncher, it's locked safely away in a Massachusetts approved gun safe in your closet. As you get your wits about you, (sort of), adrenaline, fear, anger, confusion, shaky knees, pounding heart - all begin to kick in. You desperately try to find some eyesight. You turn on your tac light and it virtually blinds you. You pull it together enough to open your door and creep out into your hallway. As you round the corner, you are confronted by an armed intruder 15-feet away. Startled, you raise your weapon as he raises his - a shot rings out, your pupils dilate from the flash - despite all the talk of "auditory exclusion" you've read about, you go instantly deaf. The roar of a 12ga, feels like a kick to your ears, which instantly ring. All of this happens in fractions of a second, as a beanbag sails across your living room and hits the wall next to your target, or a rubber ball bounces off the door moulding....You have just killed yourself.....

The reality is, if you get a shot off at all - you have one good one in you - maybe two. In my personal opinion, defending your home with anything less than something adequate enough to end the threat the first time, is irresponsible to your family and even to the concept of home defense...

 

[MACGYVR]

If you are using less than lethal rounds, you might as well defend your home with airsoft or a paintball gun.

Kill the bastard(s). Dead men tell no tales. One side to the story and it should be yours. Screw the worry over the whatifs of suits etc. When your life and your family's life is on the line, laws are meaningless. You do what you have to do to eliminate the threat.

 

[Boston_Shooter]

As far as I know Lethal=Lawsuit also...

 

[hicksonj]

Yea... but against you, not your estate.