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Less Lethal
- Thread starter DirkDiggler
- Start date
Like 12ga bean bags and such? I'm not sure those are available to the civ. population - if they are, they are certainly not cheap. And, only my opinion here, if you're thinking "home defense" type scenarios, I personally wouldn't even think about treading there in this state... Again, Just my opinion.
Yes, I was thinking 12 GA bean bag type stuff.
I'm asking for a reason. Long story short the state police were chasing 2 suspected murders after the fled their vehicle after being pulled over. It just so happens that they lost them. As it turns out, they were running through my back yard at 2 am. I happened to be there taking the puppy out for her final bathroom break for the night. It was too dark to see and it sounded like a person but could have been a deer so I didn't bother to call the police. I was armed so I wasn't worried but it just got me thinking about home defense.
I'm asking for a reason. Long story short the state police were chasing 2 suspected murders after the fled their vehicle after being pulled over. It just so happens that they lost them. As it turns out, they were running through my back yard at 2 am. I happened to be there taking the puppy out for her final bathroom break for the night. It was too dark to see and it sounded like a person but could have been a deer so I didn't bother to call the police. I was armed so I wasn't worried but it just got me thinking about home defense.
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I have some bean bag loads.. I shot one at a pumpkin and it didn't do squat! I did not buy them so I cannot disclose where they came from. I do keep 2 on the saddle of my SG. You may also want to look into getting someone with a SG loader to make you some LL rounds. You can use dimes, rocksalt, cayenne pepper, and lots of other varieties. Make sure you test them before you use them. Also, don't count on them cycling an auto...
Well I'd personally use LL rounds because I'm not really interested in killing someone unless I absolutely have to. The concept is; load one less lethal round into the SG with "normal" rounds behind it. If they keep coming after they've been hit w/ a LL then thats their problem. Not saying that LL would always be my first choice but its nice to have options.
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![[thinking]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/010.gif "Thinking [thinking]")
I was thinking more like rubber buckshot but BB loads would work. Ya, I could manufacture my own LL rounds but I figured I'd ask. I wasn't aware that LL rounds aren't available to the plebs.
I wouldn't worry about cycling an auto. My HD gun is an 870.
Yeah, probably. But lethal does too.
That said, if I have to shoot someone, I want to do all I can to make sure the threat is 100% neutralized. I'm not going to risk my life on a bean bag, hoping that it pisses off the perp enough that he runs away or it slows him down long enough that I realize he's still coming and I can get a second shot off.
W
wolf223
The less lethal ammo is intended to break up riots, not shoot identified threats / targets.
I respect your stance, but if someone wont budge to a gun pointed at them, they probably mean business.
I respect your stance, but if someone wont budge to a gun pointed at them, they probably mean business.
I am not a Lawyer but.....
I think if you use anything other than factory box stock ammo for home defense you are looking for major trouble in our court system with a jury of our peers lead by a defense attorney that will try to take that 12 guage round of dimes and turn it into some frankenstein creation of some warp minded sadistic gun slinging masochist that sits in the dark waiting for someone to walk through the front door uninvited. Even if the intent was to be less lethal. I don't think you want to have to explain that in the midst of the shitstorm you will already be in by choosing that your life was more important than some BG with intent to harm you.
Conventional home defense ammo will do the job it is meant to do.
As far as shooting the guys running through the yard with anything, that may land you in a pile of goo no matter what you shot. If they are running away from you the case would be hard to make that you were in a threatened position.
I think if you use anything other than factory box stock ammo for home defense you are looking for major trouble in our court system with a jury of our peers lead by a defense attorney that will try to take that 12 guage round of dimes and turn it into some frankenstein creation of some warp minded sadistic gun slinging masochist that sits in the dark waiting for someone to walk through the front door uninvited. Even if the intent was to be less lethal. I don't think you want to have to explain that in the midst of the shitstorm you will already be in by choosing that your life was more important than some BG with intent to harm you.
Conventional home defense ammo will do the job it is meant to do.
As far as shooting the guys running through the yard with anything, that may land you in a pile of goo no matter what you shot. If they are running away from you the case would be hard to make that you were in a threatened position.
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Less than lethal is still lethal force. And if you're committed to to using lethal force to defend yourself, you really should use fully lethal force. When shooting, you need to do so to eliminate the threat, not to injure and infuriate the threat. It is a noble thought to consider using less than lethal force against a criminal in your house, in the dark. However, I'd be concerned that you use the ltl, which doesn't stop him, then blast the shitbag with 00 buck, blowing his guts all over your walls. Some anti-gun politician or DA might paint you as an evil SOB for torturing the shitbag with less than lethal then blowing him away. They could say that you obviously thought less than lethal was good enough, but then got bloodthirsty and shot the guy.
If you're going to use less than lethal, I wouldn't use anything else. But I wouldn't use less than lethal anyway, nor give a warning shot to someone threatening harm.
Well, maybe three warning shots: two to the chest and one to the head....
If you're going to use less than lethal, I wouldn't use anything else. But I wouldn't use less than lethal anyway, nor give a warning shot to someone threatening harm.
Well, maybe three warning shots: two to the chest and one to the head....
IMO LL rounds would end up with someone saying well he had time to f*** around with bean back rounds before he killed my babey why couldn't he have found a way to stop the situation with all that extra time he had. Sides that first shot that doesn't do anything buy piss them off might be the only shot you have before their hands are on the barrel of your guy and you are fighting hand to hand for your life cause the next round is the real thing.
Like chet says it's a noble thought but if you carry or own a gun to defend yourself there really is no middle ground. Center mass - high quality defense ammo. What we are trying to do here is stop a threat so use the best shit you can get and concentrate on stopping the threat as quickly a possible. I don't think any of us want to kill anybody ever. But, we all want to stop that threat and stay safe. Sometimes though death is a side effect(no joke here it's just the facts).
Like chet says it's a noble thought but if you carry or own a gun to defend yourself there really is no middle ground. Center mass - high quality defense ammo. What we are trying to do here is stop a threat so use the best shit you can get and concentrate on stopping the threat as quickly a possible. I don't think any of us want to kill anybody ever. But, we all want to stop that threat and stay safe. Sometimes though death is a side effect(no joke here it's just the facts).
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Not only that, but there is a very real chance that the use of less lethal specialty ammo by non-leos will be taken as an admission that the defender, at the time of firing, concluded that lethal force was not reasonable but, none the less, deployed lethal force.
I think Rob hit the nail on the head. If you are justified in using a firearm with any type of projectile then I believe that you feel the threat is serious enough that you are in fear of death or serious injury to yourself or others. If you do not believe that to be the case, then the law says you should not be using the firearm.
I think your intention, and reasoning, are good, but I'm afraid that legally it may have a bad outcome for you. Remember that brandishing a firearm in this state can get you in trouble.
I think this is an example of how the laws in the PRM have another undesired effect. I believe that there are some situations where merely displaying the fact that you are armed will stop things from deteriorating further and prevent actually having to use the gun. If you can't disengage from a developing situation it seems as if you almost have to wait to deploy your weapon until it's use is inevitable. I think drawing your weapon and being prepared to use it is preferable to only drawing it when have to use it.
Maybe my reasoning is wrong, and I'd welcome further comments.
I agree with your logic. Drawing and being prepared to use is different from drawing and immediately using. All depends on the situation....and there are many different scenarios. Immediately firing may be paramount....and necessary.
Just to add to this a bit more:
When LEOs are deploying LTL rounds, there is ALWAYS lethal cover in case the LTL doesn't do the job. I've seen/used 12ga bean bag rounds, and while I imagine they would hurt quite a bit, after about 15 yards or so, you can really see them losing steam.
Additionally, LEOs go through LTL deployment training - ie when to deploy, how to deploy, where to aim, etc. don't let the name fool you, less than lethal can be rather misleading. A 12ga rubber bullet shell to the head isn't going to end well. LTL = Lawsuit in the civilian world. If you're going to point a gun at someone, I hope you're willing to use it for the job it was intended, accept the consequences that are associated with it - Especially in this state, AND be ready to justify, and justify well, WHY you felt you had to do what you did.
When LEOs are deploying LTL rounds, there is ALWAYS lethal cover in case the LTL doesn't do the job. I've seen/used 12ga bean bag rounds, and while I imagine they would hurt quite a bit, after about 15 yards or so, you can really see them losing steam.
Additionally, LEOs go through LTL deployment training - ie when to deploy, how to deploy, where to aim, etc. don't let the name fool you, less than lethal can be rather misleading. A 12ga rubber bullet shell to the head isn't going to end well. LTL = Lawsuit in the civilian world. If you're going to point a gun at someone, I hope you're willing to use it for the job it was intended, accept the consequences that are associated with it - Especially in this state, AND be ready to justify, and justify well, WHY you felt you had to do what you did.
the way I see it... less than lethal rounds are behavior modification rounds and eliminate intent to kill.
True, but if you shoot the BG with a LL round and he dies, you open the door up to negligent homicide.
i.e. you shoot the BG in self defense with a 'normal' round. OP's got a shotty so let's say you shoot him with #4 shot. He's attacking you, he's armed, you've dotted the i's and crossed the t's so it's ruled self-defense and the shoot's rightous. You get sued by the BG's estate. They argue negligent homicide. You're defense is you didn't kill him by accident, you intended it and it was pure self defense. You have a good chance of winning.
Now change it to a LL round. Because you're not going to kill the BG, the temptation is to shoot sooner. Maybe you're NOT in immediate life-threatening danger. LL rounds sometimes kill. The guy dies. Now you've got less a chance of coming out of the criminal proceedings intact and even less in the civil. "No, I didn't intend to kill the person," Yah, but he died. Your actions caused his death. Your negligence in shooting the LL round that killed him led directly to his death. Now you're on the hook for the wrongful death action.
You're either in a life-threatening situation where you should be shooting to kill, or you're not. If the latter, you shouldn't be using a gun.
Yea I agree with the majority concensus so far, I'de rather have effective rounds if I know I need to use them. If he charges you and you can only get one shot off before he tackles you. It would give him a bruise and just piss him off more. If the intruder is not afraid of the barrel of a gun pointed at him, he really doesn't care that much about his own life and especially lacks concern for your life.
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