LEO response to active shooters

[law dawg]

http://www.wcpo.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=d26c29ff-f134-4202-bc40-947534a6de3c

When Seconds Count: Stopping Active Killers
Reported by: Brendan Keefe
Email: [email protected]
Last Update: 11/14 1:22 am
Related Links


There have been so many school shootings over the last 40 years that
researchers have been able to develop a profile of the typical mass
murderer.

They're called "active shooters" or "active killers" and their crimes play
out in a matter of minutes.

After the Columbine High School massacre in 1999, police changed their
tactics.

The two student gunmen killed 15 people and themselves before the SWAT team was in position. Commanders realized that it simply takes too long to assemble a tactical team in time to stop an active killer.

The new tactics developed in response to Columbine involved creating an
ad-hoc tactical team using the first four or five patrol officers on the
scene.They would enter the shooting scene in a diamond formation with guns pointing in all directions.

This technique was employed by police departments around the country.

Then 32 people were killed by a lone gunman at Virginia Tech in April 2007.

Seung Hui Cho shot 47 people, 30 fatally, in the university's Norris Hall in
just 11 minutes. That means every minute he killed more than three people and shot a total of four.

Once again, the gunman continued shooting until a four-officer team made
entry and then he killed himself.

Law enforcement reviewed its tactics.

Based on the Virginia Tech data, experts determined the first officer on
scene should make entry immediately with an aggressive attack on the
shooter.

Every minute the officer waits for back-up, another three or more people
could die.

In other words, while it was once considered suicide for a lone officer to
take on an active killer, it is now considered statistical homicide for him
not to do so.

Tactical Defense Institute in Adams County, Ohio developed one of the first
"single officer response" programs in the nation.

TDI was teaching the tactic even before Virginia Tech. Now the National
School Resource Officer Organization (NSRO) is using TDI instructors to
teach school resource officers how to confront a gunman immediately.

Locally, all Blue Ash police officers are trained in these new tactics in
large part because their chief, Col. Chris Wallace, is also a TDI
instructor.

The other statistic that emerged from a study of active killers is that they
almost exclusively seek out "gun free" zones for their attacks.

In most states, concealed handguns are prohibited at schools and on college
campuses even for those with permits.

Many malls and workplaces also place signs at their entrances prohibiting
firearms on the premises.

Now tacticians believe the signs themselves may be an invitation to the
active killers.

<EDITORIAL interjection: Well, Duh! Ya think?>

The psychological profile of a mass murderer indicates he is looking to
inflict the most casualties as quickly as possible.

Also, the data show most active killers have no intention of surviving the
event.

They may select schools and shopping malls because of the large number of
defenseless victims and the virtual guarantee no on the scene one is armed.

As soon as they're confronted by any armed resistance, the shooters
typically turn the gun on themselves.

 

[Cuda444]

http://www.wcpo.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=d26c29ff-f134-4202-bc40-947534a6de3c

The other statistic that emerged from a study of active killers is that they
almost exclusively seek out "gun free" zones for their attacks.

In most states, concealed handguns are prohibited at schools and on college
campuses even for those with permits.

Many malls and workplaces also place signs at their entrances prohibiting
firearms on the premises.

Now tacticians believe the signs themselves may be an invitation to the
active killers.

Could it be? Gun Free Zones invite gunmen? Whodda thunk it? I find it amazing that the media has finally posted something like this... specifically stating that "Gun Free Zones" may actually invite trouble. Perhaps things are looking up?

 

[CRSIII]

Quite a few "no shit Dick Tracy" moments in this article.

 

[jar]

Quite a few "no shit Dick Tracy" moments in this article.

But the fact that they were mentioned in the mainstream media is huge.

 

[bambame2]

You mean the ostrich technique doesn't work. I hope people see this report in the main stream media.

 

[JRyan]

But the fact that they were mentioned in the mainstream media is huge.

Agreed. I've always been annoyed that people could be so willfully ignorant.

 

[DickWanner]

LEOs were on-campus at the time of the VA Tech shooting, they were at the building in less than 3 minutes and were inside the building in less than 6 (IIRC). Even with those amazing response times, the shooter had done his damage and committed suicide before LE could responsd There have been very few instances where LE have been able to stop a rampage murder in the middle of their shooting, especially in school shootings. I'm sorry, but there is little to no training that LE can do that will make a diffence in reguards to school shooters. CCW on campuses is the only possible solution to an active shooter short of placing an armed police officer in every classroom.

 

[CRSIII]

You mean the ostrich technique doesn't work. I hope people see this report in the main stream media.

This technique just gets your ass shot.

 

[calsdad]

LEOs were on-campus at the time of the VA Tech shooting, they were at the building in less than 3 minutes and were inside the building in less than 6 (IIRC). Even with those amazing response times, the shooter had done his damage and committed suicide before LE could responsd There have been very few instances where LE have been able to stop a rampage murder in the middle of their shooting, especially in school shootings. I'm sorry, but there is little to no training that LE can do that will make a diffence in reguards to school shooters. CCW on campuses is the only possible solution to an active shooter short of placing an armed police officer in every classroom.

Seems like most of what the report is detailing used to pass for common sense. I started to notice somewhere back in the 80's that "experts" and "studies" took over and experience started to take a back seat. Maybe hopefully now we are finally seeing people wakeup from some of the BS that has been thrown around for the last 20-30 years from the "experts".


One of the interesting points of logic from that report is the fact that they specifically spell out the longer the time goes before the gunman is confronted - the more people will die:

In other words, while it was once considered suicide for a lone officer to
take on an active killer, it is now considered statistical homicide for him
not to do so.

Combine that with the admission that police often cannot get there in time:

LEOs were on-campus at the time of the VA Tech shooting, they were at the building in less than 3 minutes and were inside the building in less than 6 (IIRC). Even with those amazing response times, the shooter had done his damage and committed suicide before LE could responsd There have been very few instances where LE have been able to stop a rampage murder in the middle of their shooting, especially in school shootings. I'm sorry, but there is little to no training that LE can do that will make a diffence in reguards to school shooters. CCW on campuses is the only possible solution to an active shooter short of placing an armed police officer in every classroom.

and you get the logical conclusion that the only sustainable way for our society to protect against these types of lunatics - is allow civilians to carry.

 

[toga]

and you get the logical conclusion that the only sustainable way for our society to protect against these types of lunatics - is allow civilians to carry.

+1 for an articulate breakdown of the story

 

[vellnueve]

LEOs were on-campus at the time of the VA Tech shooting, they were at the building in less than 3 minutes and were inside the building in less than 6 (IIRC). Even with those amazing response times, the shooter had done his damage and committed suicide before LE could responsd There have been very few instances where LE have been able to stop a rampage murder in the middle of their shooting, especially in school shootings. I'm sorry, but there is little to no training that LE can do that will make a diffence in reguards to school shooters. CCW on campuses is the only possible solution to an active shooter short of placing an armed police officer in every classroom.

Well, at Columbine, there was an officer there who exchanged fire with one of the shooters. If he had been more aggressive and followed them in, lives could have been saved. To be fair to the officer, though, he was outgunned. A patrol rifle could have made all the difference.

 

[DickWanner]

Well, at Columbine, there was an officer there who exchanged fire with one of the shooters. If he had been more aggressive and followed them in, lives could have been saved. To be fair to the officer, though, he was outgunned. A patrol rifle could have made all the difference.

Very true, but chances of an LEO being on-scene when the shootings start is an extremely rare chance at best. As said by Calsdad, the only way to get rid of these rampage shootings is to allow citizens to be armed and eliminate these gun-free zones.

 

[vellnueve]

Even that won't get rid of it. Everything we do involving a gun and shooting the bastards is reactive. Even a CCW holder in the same room as the shooter can't necessarily prevent all innocent injury.

Increased LE training on quick response, civilian CCW, etc are both needed and good, but what we need to do most is work on the societal problems that lead to this shit in the first place.

That won't happen, because the people of the United States are increasingly unwilling to take personal responsibility for raising their own kids.

 

[calsdad]

Even that won't get rid of it. Everything we do involving a gun and shooting the bastards is reactive. Even a CCW holder in the same room as the shooter can't necessarily prevent all innocent injury.

Increased LE training on quick response, civilian CCW, etc are both needed and good, but what we need to do most is work on the societal problems that lead to this shit in the first place.

That won't happen, because the people of the United States are increasingly unwilling to take personal responsibility for raising their own kids.

True - even arming everybody in the country who is able would only be a rear quard action if the true causes of this stuff are not addressed.

I see the lack of responsibility everywhere - it isn't just in raising kids. I remember back when Clinton was in office and the whole Lewinsky thing went down - and he tried to claim that a blow job was not sex. I remember thinking at the time - that this will just give justification to people who want to use that as an excuse. Now I hear stories from my friends who have kids in middle school who say this attitude is already seen as normal among high school and middle school kids.

I wish Clinton had been in office BEFORE I got to high school!

But seriously - on another thread here on NES somebody posted that their wife is already hearing kids talk about Obama just giving out diplomas - so the kids think they wont have to study any more. This country is seriously screwed if it does not wake up and stop trying to deflect blame. This means from the top to the bottom.

 

[vellnueve]

It's what I've been saying. There is a serious lack of personal responsibility and accountability in this country, and it is only getting worse.

 

[Ripach]

Good article, glad to see stuff like this being printed. Hopefully a sign of things to come.

It's what I've been saying. There is a serious lack of personal responsibility and accountability in this country, and it is only getting worse.

+1
This is being proven right now with the mortgage crisis.

 

[RKG]

Good article, glad to see stuff like this being printed. Hopefully a sign of things to come.


+1
This is being proven right now with the mortgage crisis.

Actually, I do not think publicizing response plans and response plan strategy is a good idea. I thought there was pretty much a tacit agreement that this change in approach would not be publicized, and I was suprised to see this out.

 

[Bob P]

Even that won't get rid of it. Everything we do involving a gun and shooting the bastards is reactive. Even a CCW holder in the same room as the shooter can't necessarily prevent all innocent injury.

Increased LE training on quick response, civilian CCW, etc are both needed and good, but what we need to do most is work on the societal problems that lead to this shit in the first place.

That won't happen, because the people of the United States are increasingly unwilling to take personal responsibility for raising their own kids.

+1 and rep point added!

We seem to want to live in a padded society. You can't make everyone safe all the time. Sh** happens. Arming everyone or taking away all guns, or even putting a cop on every corner ISN'T going to eliminate violence. Given our genetic wiring, I really doubt you CAN eliminate violence from the human species.

 

[M1911]

Well, at Columbine, there was an officer there who exchanged fire with one of the shooters. If he had been more aggressive and followed them in, lives could have been saved. To be fair to the officer, though, he was outgunned. A patrol rifle could have made all the difference.

IIRC from what Ayoob said at LFI-1 or 2, the officer exchanged fire with one of the gunman at a distance of ~70 yards, using his service pistol. The gunman was using a Hipoint Carbine. The officer had never fired his service pistol at such distances before and his fire was ineffective. Ayoob discussed the incident directly with this officer.

I agree completely that if he had a patrol rifle, he might have been able to kill one of the gunman at the outset. That might have significantly reduced the casualties.

It does no good to have patrol rifles in the trunk, or in the supervisor's car, or back at the station, or only with the SWAT team. Patrol rifles should be mounted in every squad car, up front, accessible to the officer.

 

[MetalgodZ]

On Digg (not submitted by me).
http://digg.com/politics/When_Seconds_Count_Stopping_Active_Killers_Cincinnati_bre

 

[P-14]

More from the News Team in the comments to the article:

BrendanKeefe - 11/18/2008 Report User From The I-Team (2): Also, regarding our note above, some modern mass murders pre-date the development of contemporary CCW laws. The Luby's Cafeteria shooting in Killeen, TX in 1991 took place before Texas adopted its Florida-style CCW law. In fact, that mass murder of 23 people was used as an example by those seeking to enact the CCW legislation. It is accurate to say firearms were banned in Luby's at that time because there was no uniform concealed carry law in place in 1991. In fact, several victims and survivors had legally owned handguns in their cars at the time of the shooting. While that shooting was not addressed in our story, it and others over the last 40 years were analyzed in our investigation.

These people have finally gotten it! CCW is the only way to go and it must be everywhere.

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

Good fodder for national CCW.

 

[vellnueve]

IIRC from what Ayoob said at LFI-1 or 2, the officer exchanged fire with one of the gunman at a distance of ~70 yards, using his service pistol. The gunman was using a Hipoint Carbine. The officer had never fired his service pistol at such distances before and his fire was ineffective. Ayoob discussed the incident directly with this officer.

I agree completely that if he had a patrol rifle, he might have been able to kill one of the gunman at the outset. That might have significantly reduced the casualties.

It does no good to have patrol rifles in the trunk, or in the supervisor's car, or back at the station, or only with the SWAT team. Patrol rifles should be mounted in every squad car, up front, accessible to the officer.

As I understand it, a few had already been killed by this point, but the library massacre where most of the deaths occurred had not yet happened. An M4 or AR could have drastically changed the course of the day.

70 yards under fire with a service pistol is a tough shot even for someone who practices at that range.

 

[M1911]

70 yards under fire with a service pistol is a tough shot even for someone who practices at that range.

Indeed. And if you've never trained or practiced at that range, you have basically no chance of making the shot with a pistol.

 

[Bassturd]

IIRC from what Ayoob said at LFI-1 or 2, the officer exchanged fire with one of the gunman at a distance of ~70 yards, using his service pistol. The gunman was using a Hipoint Carbine. The officer had never fired his service pistol at such distances before and his fire was ineffective. Ayoob discussed the incident directly with this officer.

I agree completely that if he had a patrol rifle, he might have been able to kill one of the gunman at the outset. That might have significantly reduced the casualties.

It does no good to have patrol rifles in the trunk, or in the supervisor's car, or back at the station, or only with the SWAT team. Patrol rifles should be mounted in every squad car, up front, accessible to the officer.

I have a friend on a local PD. He is not allowed to have the rifle in his patrol car because he has not completed the requisite training, and there is no budget for that training at the moment.

Nevermind that he's an Iraq war vet and can handle the weapon better than anyone in his department. Stoopid bureaucrat crap.

 

[M1911]

I have a friend on a local PD. He is not allowed to have the rifle in his patrol car because he has not completed the requisite training, and there is no budget for that training at the moment.

Nevermind that he's an Iraq war vet and can handle the weapon better than anyone in his department. Stoopid bureaucrat crap.

If he used that rifle in a shooting, the first thing opposing counsel in a civil suit would look at would be the training records. If he didn't have a recent police qualification with the rifle, opposing counsel would be salivating.

 

[Half Cocked]

Stoopid liability crap.

Fixed it for you!

 

[Half Cocked]

If he used that rifle in a shooting, the first thing opposing counsel in a civil suit would look at would be the training records. If he didn't have a recent police qualification with the rifle, opposing counsel would be salivating.

Bingo!!

It is in his best interest not to use it.

 

[M1911]

Here's an example of what you can expect if an officer was not certified and a shooting goes bad:

Boston Police Department training records show that Deputy Superintendent Robert E. O'Toole Jr. was not certified to use the pepper-pellet gun that he and other officers under his command fired during celebrations of the Red Sox American League pennant victory last month, killing a 21-year-old reveler and seriously injuring two others.

A lawyer representing O'Toole, who was the commander of police operations that night around Fenway Park, has said that O'Toole was trained to use the FN303 pepper-pellet gun at a five-day course last year in Ithaca, N.Y.

But an instructor's guide says the course only acquainted students with a variety of less-lethal weapons, including the FN303. The company that offered the sessions, which included limited time for firing each of the weapons, also said the course did not constitute certification.

"It was very clearly articulated it was not training," said Kyle B. Olson, a Community Research Associates vice president. "At no time would this have been presented as anything other than a demonstration, at best a familiarization, with the different types of less-lethal weapons."

O'Toole's lawyer maintained yesterday that course instructors would not have allowed anyone inexperienced or incapable to fire less-lethal weapons during the sessions, though he acknowledged that his client was not certified.

"He was eminently qualified to use this particular weapons system or, for that matter, any type of weapons system available to the Boston Police Department or any department anywhere across the country," said the lawyer, Timothy M. Burke.

Boston police are investigating the shootings and have not said who fired the pellet that killed Victoria Snelgrove, an Emerson College student. The department purchased the FN303 guns to assist with controlling protests during the Democratic National Convention and had not used them in crowd-control situations outside training before the Fenway Park shootings. Police officials have suspended their use pending the outcome of the investigation.

O'Toole was one of three officers who fired pepper-pellet guns at postgame crowds on Lansdowne Street that night, according to one police officer at the scene and another person involved with the investigation of the shootings. Patrolman Samil Silta also was not certified to use the FN303, while Rochefort Milien, the third officer who fired, was certified, according to a Boston police officer involved with the weapons training at the department.

Almost 30 officers took an eight-hour class offered by the weapon's manufacturer in the spring, which certified them as instructors on the weapon, according to the manufacturer, FN Herstal. The training includes classroom work and time on the firing range, the company said.

As postgame celebrations spun out of control in the early morning hours of Oct. 21, O'Toole took at least two FN303 rifles from a police supply vehicle and asked officers nearby if they were certified to use the weapon, according to the officer at the scene and the person involved with the investigation. O'Toole handed one gun to Silta, who had said he was not certified, and shot several rounds from one of the guns himself, said the officer and person involved in the investigation. O'Toole shot four rounds, his lawyer said, but not in the direction of Snelgrove, who died after a pellet struck her in the eye.

Police have also not said who fired the pellet that tore through the cheek of 24-year-old Cambridge resident Paul Gately or a third pellet that pierced the forehead of Kapila Bhamidipati, a 19-year-old Boston University student. Both had climbed the girders underneath the left-field Green Monster seats.

The gun manufacturer's website says the weapons are not to be aimed at the head or neck area.

Asked yesterday about the Ithaca instructor's guide and the representative who said the course did not constitute training or certification, a Police Department spokesman, Lieutenant Kevin Foley, would only say that O'Toole is "one of the most highly trained command staff members in the department."

The department released O'Toole's training records, which included a copy of the instructor's guide used with the Ithaca course, in response to a written request from the Globe.

Under open records law, the Globe has also requested the records for Milien and Silta; the department has not released the records for the two officers, who have been on injured leave since the shootings.

Boston police officials have said O'Toole is restricted to desk duty pending the outcome of investigations into the shootings, though he remains in command of the department's Special Operations Unit.

The department has launched an Internal Affairs investigation of the shootings, as well as a probe conducted by homicide detectives. Police Commissioner Kathleen M. O'Toole, who is no relation to Robert O'Toole, also convened an external committee, headed by former federal prosecutor Donald Stern, to review the shootings.

"We continue to wait for the findings of both the internal department investigations, as well as the external Stern committee report," Foley said yesterday.

Robert O'Toole's records show he attended the five-day course in less-lethal technologies in October 2003. The instructor's guide calls for one 45-minute session about less-lethal munitions and a 2-hour "demonstration and exercise" at a firing range. The guide says students fire five FN303 rounds and a few rounds each from eight other weapons, including those that shoot beanbags and rubber and foam projectiles. The exercise is supervised by trained instructors, the company said.

Attendance "does not certify the students" as instructors or users of less-lethal munitions, states the guide.

Olson, the vice president of the company that offered the course, said it is designed for students to "have some knowledge and make informed decisions in terms of acquiring less-lethal weapons for their departments."

Robert O'Toole's training records show he earned certification through various courses as an instructor in Advanced Taser stun-gun usage and as an instructor in the use of revolvers, semiautomatic pistols, and chemical munitions. He is certified to teach the use of some less-lethal munitions, including beanbag rounds, stun grenades, and smoke and tear gas rounds. The company that provided that certification, Combined Tactical Systems Inc., says the training does not transfer to use of the FN303.

Sid Heal, a commander in the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department who trains officers around the world in the use of less-lethal force, said specialized training is critical to the proper use of the FN303, because the design of the gun, which uses a compressed-air mechanism to shoot liquid-filled pellets, affects how pellets behave in the air. Like other pepper-projectile technologies, the FN303 pellets curve in flight, he said.

"The result of that is a device that's effective at 10 feet wouldn't be effective at 100 feet, and to make it effective at 100 feet it's likely to be dangerous at 10 feet," Heal said.

Representatives of FN Herstal did not return calls for comment yesterday

http://www.boston.com/news/educatio...mmander_not_certified_to_use_gun_records_say/

It didn't matter that O'Toole had extensive training. He wasn't qualified on that gun, so he and the department were crucified. The same thing could happen to your Iraq war vet buddy if he was using that patrol rifle without a police qualification on it.

 

[Bassturd]

Here's an example of what you can expect if an officer was not certified and a shooting goes bad:



http://www.boston.com/news/educatio...mmander_not_certified_to_use_gun_records_say/

It didn't matter that O'Toole had extensive training. He wasn't qualified on that gun, so he and the department were crucified. The same thing could happen to your Iraq war vet buddy if he was using that patrol rifle without a police qualification on it.

I understand and am not arguing that he could be barbequed. I am saying that it is stupid that he could be barbequed given his training.