LEO Question ????

[AngelKing]

being as there is no presentation law ( I know other states vary) in MA, I have to go with don't volunteer this until you are being asked to vacate the vehicle.....and as has been said don't shout "I GOTS A GUN!" and pull it out.

 

[M1911]

And maybe a LEO can answer this definitively: Carry licenses show up on your screen, don't they?

It is my understanding that the answer to that question is "it depends." Different towns use different terminal systems. It shows up on some, but on others the officer would have to do a particular query. Furthermore, I expect that the majority of the people who have an LTC don't carry. So the fact that you have an LTC doesn't necessarily imply that you are carrying at that time.

In my experience, most cops are decent people. But there are exceptions. I know of an FBI agent and an ICE agent who had run-ins with MA State Police. In both cases, they were off duty when they were stopped for speeding in the privately owned vehicle. The showed their credentials to the Statie. The Statie then said that they couldn't carry a firearm when off duty and wanted to disarm them. It took quite a bit of time at the side of the road before the Statie was straightened out. No, I don't think those incidents were typical. No, I don't think that Statie was following State Police policy. But it is an example of how a small percentage of officers think.

 

[AngelKing]

Wow. That was almost verbatim what my uncle told me on the same topic - he's a Boston cop.

Every cop worth his badge assumes you are carrying and are going to try and kill him when he approaches you. Don't offer unless asked or told to step out of the car. If a cop does not assume you are armed, he is going to get a rude surprise one day.

 

[AngelKing]

Jesus H Christ, if a cop doesn't know the laws as they apply to others in LE...that bolstered my vote for not saying anything unless IM somehow being taken out of the car.

It is my understanding that the answer to that question is "it depends." Different towns use different terminal systems. It shows up on some, but on others the officer would have to do a particular query. Furthermore, I expect that the majority of the people who have an LTC don't carry. So the fact that you have an LTC doesn't necessarily imply that you are carrying at that time.

In my experience, most cops are decent people. But there are exceptions. I know of an FBI agent and an ICE agent who had run-ins with MA State Police. In both cases, they were off duty when they were stopped for speeding in the privately owned vehicle. The showed their credentials to the Statie. The Statie then said that they couldn't carry a firearm when off duty and wanted to disarm them. It took quite a bit of time at the side of the road before the Statie was straightened out. No, I don't think those incidents were typical. No, I don't think that Statie was following State Police policy. But it is an example of how a small percentage of officers think.

 

[Len-2A Training]

In my experience, most cops are decent people. But there are exceptions. I know of an FBI agent and an ICE agent who had run-ins with MA State Police. In both cases, they were off duty when they were stopped for speeding in the privately owned vehicle. The showed their credentials to the Statie. The Statie then said that they couldn't carry a firearm when off duty and wanted to disarm them. It took quite a bit of time at the side of the road before the Statie was straightened out. No, I don't think those incidents were typical. No, I don't think that Statie was following State Police policy. But it is an example of how a small percentage of officers think.

Hmmm, I'm wondering if the Trooper wasn't a particular participant on MassCops that I alluded to earlier?? Wouldn't surprise me in the least.

 

[drgrant]

Picard: " Just when I thought I saw it all, someone posts another "pulled over while carrying" thread.... (facepalm) "

 

[drgrant]

A repost....

These "pulled over while carrying" threads can be summarized into a few different classes of response:

-Those who say you should always notify

-Those who say you should always notify because of the ruse that it might
get you out of a ticket. (Fat chance, IMO, but people still believe this crap for
some reason. )

-Those who say you should only notify if the law requires it.

-Those who say you should only notify if the law requires it or you are
asked about firearms, or asked to get out of the vehicle.

-Like the above, but have had a bad experience with a LEO to back this up... (eg, gun stuck in ear, dragged out of
car, muzzle swept by own gun during a disarm, etc. )

-LEOs who tell you don't do it unless law requires it (Because it might spook
some leos that don't get ccw very well )

-LEOs who tell you to ALWAYS do it regardless.

Oh, and almost forgot:

-Those who excoriate individuals for not doing it.

-Those who excoriate individuals for doing it when it's not required.

Pick one or more than one of the above, push BLEND button.

 

[In God We Trust]

Hmmm, I'm wondering if the Trooper wasn't a particular participant on MassCops that I alluded to earlier?? Wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Sounds like a trashcops member. If anyone wants to know how this hypothetical encounter could go bad, go read masscops for an hour and you will see that there are indeed some dickheads out there that would ruin your life on a trumped up charge and laugh about it at the bar after work.

I would love to have video of the encounter between the trooper and the FBI agent. Probably went down like a monty python skit.

 

[bostonasphalt2]

I gave my .02 from a LE standpoint. I can tell you this..........you are better off having the Officer know you are LEGALLY carrying than him/her assuming otherwise. Think of it this.....

Your carrying a handgun, you get stopped, officer asks for your license and reg, you reach for your reg in the glovebox and the Officer sees the handle or part of the holster..................there is almost no good outcome for this type of scenario.

An officer is concerned about his/her safety on a traffic stop, it is one of the biggest unknowns a cop can walk into. In reality, you dont know whats on a cops mind. The cop is stopping you for a reason, you could have been speeding, your car could fit a description, in a high crime area, etc. Do the right thing and be up front. Most cops I know are pro carry, you wont have an issue for being up front about carrying.

The original poster asked for LEO opinion, not a "what would you do"..........there has been some bad opinions put forth that could get someone hurt.








M1911, No offense and I dont doubt that you heard this story, but I am calling BS on who told you that. An hour is way too much time for a detainment, a half hour is the threshold I was taught, anything more would be a borderline rights violation.

Yes, there are ways to tell the officer you are carrying without making them nervous, even if they ask you to do something mid-stop that will most likely reveal you are carrying. In your first scenario,,a responsible gun owner would know his gun may show and would inform before moving.

As far as most cops being pro carry, you are lucky to know so many, but I don't see that as being true across the state. Also, regarding civil eights violation, no law enforcement agency has ever been in trouble for that

If the officer asks, or asks me to do something that would reveal I am carry, then I will inform. By stating I have an LTCA, and am currently carrying a firearm,,how should I proceed?

 

[ptanks56]

I was taught, and I teach the following. Once you pull over, get out your driver's license, registration, and license to carry. Hold them in your hand, with both hands draped over the top of the steering wheel so the officer can see them when he/she approaches. When asked for your license and registration, hand over your LTC also, then put your hands back on the steering wheel, clearly away from whatever you're carrying. Then speak when spoken to and do as you're told. This approach gives the officer all the information he/she needs, and avoids the possibility of verbal misunderstanding.

+1

 

[Realtor MA]

Sat in a marked car yesterday. Had a little tour of the computer. In this particular town the LTC does not show up unless they look for it. On a domestic call they are notified if the homeowner is licensed(firearms).
What's more concerning for me is the fact that all prior arrests, motor vehicle citations etc are right there on the screen. It also shows expiry dates of plates and if I remember correctly license too.
It also shows all of the previous inquiries. ie) if a LEO runs your plate at any given time the next LEO who runs your plate will know that.

 

[Leadfarmer]

I'm not concerned with that at all. I would rather the Officer have as much info about the driver (registered owner to be more specific) when walkingup to the car. There isn't any expectation of privacy for all that stuff anyway.

 

[DukeInFlorida]

The OP was situated in Massachusetts, so he has the right answers..........

However, it's worthy of noting that in some states it's REQUIRED that you immediately announce your gun.

In those states/situations, I would reply: "Officer, I have a concealed carry permit, and I am currently carrying. How would you like me to proceed?"

That covers the law, makes the officer feel more comfortable, and should go well (presuming that it's a routine traffic stop and you haven't robbed a bank, or tried to elude him/her.)

For example, Florida and Ohio are two that require that you announce. There are others. It's up to you to know which is which.
From the Ohio discussion on concealed carry permits:
--------------------
Informing Law Enforcement of Carry:
If a person is stopped for a law enforcement purpose and if the person is carrying a concealed handgun as a CCW licensee, whether in a motor vehicle or not, the person shall inform the law enforcement officer that the person is carrying a concealed handgun, keep his or her hands in plain sight at all times and not touch the concealed handgun, unless in accordance with directions given by any law enforcement officer. Violating this section of law is a first degree misdemeanor, and in addition to any other penalty handed down by a court, shall result in the suspension of the person’s concealed handgun license for one year.

NOTE:
So far, the Ohio Supreme Court has not defined the term “plain sight” precisely in the context of carrying a concealed handgun. However, in other contexts, courts have generally held that the term “plain sight” is a common sense term that means clearly visible or unobstructed. Plain sight applies to your hands and other objects.

If a person is stopped for a law enforcement purpose and if the person is carrying a concealed handgun as a CCW licensee, whether in a motor vehicle or not, the person shall not have or attempt to have any contact with the handgun, unless in accordance with directions given by a law enforcement officer. Violating this law is a felony.

If a person is stopped for a law enforcement purpose and if the person is carrying a concealed handgun as a CCW licensee, whether in a motor vehicle or not, the person shall not knowingly disregard or fail to comply with any lawful order given by any law enforcement ofcer.

Violating this law is a first degree misdemeanor and may result in the suspension of the person’s concealed handgun license for two years. However, if at the time of the stop the law enforcement ofcer or an employee of a motor carrier enforcement unit who made the stop had actual knowledge that the licensee has had a CCW license, then the person’s CCW license shall not be suspended for a violation of 2923.16 (E) (3). The CCW licensee’s violation will be considered a minor misdemeanor.

If the CCW licensee surrenders the firearm, then the following applies:
• If the firearm is not returned at the completion of the stop, the
law enforcement officer is required to return the firearm in “ the condition it was in when it was seized.”
• If a court orders the firearm’s return and the firearm has not been
returned to the licensee, the CCW licensee can claim reasonable costs and attorney fees for the loss and the cost of claiming the firearm.

WARNING:
If you are planning on carrying a concealed handgun while driving:Have your concealed carry license and another piece of valid government identification in your possession.

Make sure the handgun is:
• In a holster secured on your person, or
• In a closed case, bag, box, or other container that is in
plain sight and has a closing mechanism such as a zipper, snap or buckle, or
• Securely encased by being stored in a closed, glove compartment or vehicle console, or
• Locked in a case.

If you are pulled over and you are carrying a concealed handgun remember the following:
• Before the officer approaches, roll down your window and place
your hands in plain view on the steering wheel.
• Calmly tell the officer that you have a license to carry a concealed
handgun and that you have a handgun with you. Ask if the officer has particular instructions concerning the handgun.
• Do not touch or attempt to touch your handgun unless specifically
told to by the officer.
• Do not exit your vehicle unless specifically told to by the officer.
• Comply with all lawful orders given by the officer.
---------

 

[Rob Boudrie]

For example, Florida and Ohio are two that require that you announce. There are others. It's up to you to know which is which.
From the Ohio discussion on concealed carry permits:

Agreed on OH.

Do you have a cite for the FL law you claim requires you announce? I have not been able to find one in the FL statutes.

 

[GSG]

Do you have a cite for the FL law you claim requires you announce? I have not been able to find one in the FL statutes.

There definitely isn't, it's similar to Mass. law on the subject.

790.06(1) says in part:

The licensee must carry the license, together with valid identification, at all times in which the licensee is in actual possession of a concealed weapon or firearm and must display both the license and proper identification upon demand by a law enforcement officer. Violations of the provisions of this subsection shall constitute a noncriminal violation with a penalty of $25, payable to the clerk of the court.

If you're in the car in FL and realize you forgot your CWFL at home, you can throw the gun in the glove compartment/center console and not worry about the fine, since anyone over 18 who can legally possess a gun can keep one loaded in the car like that in FL.

 

[mpd61]

1. Don't waste your time and don't give the officer something to worry about during a traffic stop, by talking about your LTC and what you may be carrying.
2. If you are asked to exit the vehicle, THEN you may let the nice officer know calmly that you have an LTC and are carrying.

Bottom lines is be POLITE, CALM, and follow INSTRUCTIONS...

 

[wolf223]

1. Don't waste your time and don't give the officer something to worry about during a traffic stop, by talking about your LTC and what you may be carrying.
2. If you are asked to exit the vehicle, THEN you may let the nice officer know calmly that you have an LTC and are carrying.

Bottom lines is be POLITE, CALM, and follow INSTRUCTIONS...

i'm still going with throwing the gun on the dash and lighting up a Marboro Red...

 

[namedpipes]

Does the notification requirement change if you're driving a Ferrari?

 

[ARV]

Does the notification requirement change if you're driving a Ferrari?

Only if you don't have your hot wife with you

 

[Mark L]

Regardless of my decision to tell/don't tell, does that fact that my wallet and holster are pretty close together enter into this? I've always done the obvious (window halfway down, interior light on, 10 and 2) when I'm stopped, then wait for the LEO to make his requests before pulling out my documents. I'm new to carrying, and don't necessarily feel thoroughly confident in my concealment (M&P in an OWB) yet. So when asked for my license and registration, which is also my opportunity to produce my LTC, I'd be reaching to a point near the weapon, which could suck if my concealment isn't total. Maybe I should start pull out my wallet before the LEO gets to the vehicle?

 

[M1911]

Regardless of my decision to tell/don't tell, does that fact that my wallet and holster are pretty close together enter into this?

Carry your wallet somewhere else. You should be able to get to your wallet without flashing your gun. And you do not want the officer to see you rummaging around for something as he walks up to the car -- that will likely make him nervous that you are reaching for a weaponing or trying to hide something.

 

[travis]

No requirement to tell in Maine but when I get pulled over I hand my permit on top of my license to the officer. The Le's here in Maine are pretty good and I have never had a problem.

 

[Mark L]

Carry your wallet somewhere else. You should be able to get to your wallet without flashing your gun. And you do not want the officer to see you rummaging around for something as he walks up to the car -- that will likely make him nervous that you are reaching for a weaponing or trying to hide something.

That's why I don't rummage until I'm asked. Advice worth considering, thanks.

I carry my cash in a money clip in my front pocket. Used to be on my right side, but I've switched to my left since I started carrying. Could be I should do the same with my wallet. Feels weird though, old habits ...

 

[M1911]

I wear cargo pants and keep my wallet in the right side cargo pocket. So it is very easy to get to without flashing. Also, this way I don't sit on my wallet which is bad for my back.

 

[apd193]

This is difficult to answer. For one if you are carrying (legally) most - likely you aren't a bad dude. But ultimately it comes down to: each officer is different. I am sure I have pulled over people who had concealed weapons, and was never the wiser. I have had people pull out the ID card and show me, at which time I ask them where the gun is, and then to ease the tension off-handily say it's going to stay there, right? I have also had people pull the gun out so that it is visible (prior to contact, these people I always take out of the vehicle (good intentions or not; they make me nervous.) I would look up your state law and see what the statute requires).

 

[taggart]

I have also had people pull the gun out so that it is visible (prior to contact, these people I always take out of the vehicle (good intentions or not; they make me nervous.)

First off, thank you for contributing to this thread. Good to have an LEO opinion.

Secondly, those folks must have read this forum. Albeit, they should have shouted out the window, "I got a gun," while waving it around if they wanted to follow all our advice .

 

[apd193]

Does the notification requirement change if you're driving a Ferrari?

<br><br>So a Florida State Trooper was about off-duty, when a Ferrari flies past him at 140 mph. &nbsp;The Trooper hits his lights and begins to pursue knowing he'll never catch the guy but can't just sit there. &nbsp;The driver of Ferrari see's the lights and accelerates to 160 mph, after several seconds he realizes his mistake, pulls to the shoulder and stops waiting for the sluggish trooper and his Crown Vic. &nbsp;Finally the trooper arrives (thinking man why didn't he just keep driving, I don't want to do deal with this). &nbsp;The trooper approaches the man in the car and asks for the documents needed. &nbsp;While the driver is retrieving these items the trooper says "I tell you what, sir. If you can tell me a joke I've never heard and it makes me laugh, I'll let you go with a warning." &nbsp;The driver of the Ferrari thinks a moment and says, "last month my wife left me for a trooper.....I thought you were trying to bring her back!" &nbsp;The trooper laughed all the way home!

 

[namedpipes]

. . .*The driver of the Ferrari thinks a moment and says, "last month my wife left me for a trooper.....I thought you were trying to bring her back!" *The trooper laughed all the way home!

Not bad at all. That one will be repeated!

There was an NES'er a while back, well off executive guy, owned a Ferrari, a very hot looking wife with a hotter sister, looks a little like Harrison Ford in his better days. Guy had it all. Then he posted a thread commenting that he had been stopped driving the Ferrari over the weekend and asked if he had handled the notification issue properly. One thing led to another and things sort of unraveled for him. His ex-wife was fine, but not the hottie he had posted pictures of. His Ferrari was a Hyundai. He lived in a rented apt in Fitchburg and he was either a head hunter or a shift manager at McDonalds. It was really an amazing thread. There will be a reference to find it in the ongoing "epic threads" thread, which is pretty epic itself.

btw, your outline of dealing with drivers ccw; well said.

 

[apd193]

Regardless of my decision to tell/don't tell, does that fact that my wallet and holster are pretty close together enter into this? I've always done the obvious (window halfway down, interior light on, 10 and 2) when I'm stopped, then wait for the LEO to make his requests before pulling out my documents. I'm new to carrying, and don't necessarily feel thoroughly confident in my concealment (M&P in an OWB) yet. So when asked for my license and registration, which is also my opportunity to produce my LTC, I'd be reaching to a point near the weapon, which could suck if my concealment isn't total. Maybe I should start pull out my wallet before the LEO gets to the vehicle?

<br><br>

Hopefully by now you have gotten more apt at hiding your M&P. However, as an LEO if I see you moving around prior to my approach and then I spot the M&P (movement makes us look a lot closer) you be requested to "driver slowly exit the vehicle remain facing away from me....slowly put your hands above your head....slowly back to the sound of my voice....driver slowly get on your knees and elbows.....slowly crawl onto your belly.....slowly move your hands to the side like an airplane and spread your feet." (That is a joke, by the way {unless you are really nervous - which makes us nervous}).

In the case that your wallet and gun are that close and you use an OWB you'd probably be better off just telling the LEO you are carrying and request his permission to reach for your wallet (after you told him it's proximity to your M&P.) He and his wife will appreciate that much much more. Most LEO's in rural areas aren't going to harass you too much about it. Failing to tell us and my spotting it or having my back-up (whom you may not even know is there) spot it changes things dramatically.

Also remember that LE has it's fair share of dillweed's and it's better for your safety to be unfairly harassed by the jerk and live to complain about him, rather than be shot by an over zealous "protector".

 

[In God We Trust]

Just for the record, I always start reaching for my wallet before the car comes to a complete stop so that I have everything in hand by the time the cop gets to the window. You know what he wants to see, just have it ready and there should be no problem.