Lawsuit against Barnstable challenges seizure of guns

greencobra

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However, a phone call from one town's dispatcher to the issuing PD would probably be sufficient for a MA marsupial judge to justify a suspension on the spot.
so...does this have to be arraigned before the knock on the door? in this case it said they cruised facebook and found that photo in advance of the visit. almost premeditated.
 
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Did yall notice that they brought a scumbag from the local hospital with them ? For a supposed wellness check. Red flags and Medical joining together to get people.
GREAT observation !! Sneaky scumbags ! Some scared young girl from the doctors office making red flag decisions in the field.
 

Dennis in MA

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The courts in Mass will uphold this illegal act all the way to the Mass Supreme court.

Of course they will.

Regarding Heller and future USSC decisions and the like - go back to the late 60's and look at how many Miranda violations there still were. Your state and local jurisdiction are required to be FORCED to comply. It's the nature of the beast. So stuff that violates Heller and whatever will continue in many states - especially ones like this one - for a long time. The fight won't be over if/when we get a very iron-clad ruling from USSC. It will only just begin.
 

Len-2A Training

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so...does this have to be arraigned before the knock on the door? in this case it said they cruised facebook and found that photo in advance of the visit. almost premeditated.
As long as the police radio can reach dispatch and the dispatcher has a phone that can be used to contact the issuing department, it certainly doesn't take long to do this legally.
 

TayNinh_66

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It does appear that he voluntarily let the cops in, voluntarily retrieved the pistol, and the son voluntarily confirmed he had accessed it. Case over.
The complaint makes no assertion that anything was done involuntarily. If he agreed with cops requests they don't need a warrant.
Even if he did refuse, they would probably have obtained a red flag order due to son's behavior at hospital. Guns should have been locked up. No sympathy for former owner.

(I am assuming he has the right to transfer guns to FFL if they're on the "list" but complaint doesn't address that)
 
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So I've got to ask. Why is it you ppl think the police and hospital security ended up at this guys house?? He obviously did, said, threatened, etc something for this even to come about. This ER is extremely busy. They serve a tough demographic. Barnstable PD overall is a very respectable organization. This is not some liberal gun grabbing town.
 
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So I've got to ask. Why is it you ppl think the police and hospital security ended up at this guys house?? He obviously did, said, threatened, etc something for this even to come about. This ER is extremely busy. They serve a tough demographic. Barnstable PD overall is a very respectable organization. This is not some liberal gun grabbing town.
"Well the police arrested him, he must be guilty!" Are you being serious? The info we have is limited and jumping to the defense of a PD that at best did something shitty but legal is not a great look.
 
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"Well the police arrested him, he must be guilty!" Are you being serious? The info we have is limited and jumping to the defense of a PD that at best did something shitty but legal is not a great look.
Huh what? Where did it say he was arrested? I'm asking you to think critically. Like ask yourself... how did the police end up here. I guarantee you BPD is not bored driving around looking for stuff to do. I know and work with these guys. I work with the hospital staff. I'm not saying the PD 100% could not have done anything wrong with such limited information. How do you know the police "at best did something shitty" if you don't know the slightest bit of what happened lol. This is one of the busiest ERs in the state. You think the nurses just social media stalk all of their pts in their down time? Come on man. If I were a betting man. I'd bet this guy made a legitimate threat that led to this.
 

Behind Enemy Lines

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So I've got to ask. Why is it you ppl think the police and hospital security ended up at this guys house?? He obviously did, said, threatened, etc something for this even to come about. This ER is extremely busy. They serve a tough demographic. Barnstable PD overall is a very respectable organization. This is not some liberal gun grabbing town.
The owner of the house/guns did nothing to have the PD/hospital staff at his home. His son is the one who caused the visit.
 
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Huh what? Where did it say he was arrested? I'm asking you to think critically. Like ask yourself... how did the police end up here. I guarantee you BPD is not bored driving around looking for stuff to do. I know and work with these guys. I work with the hospital staff. I'm not saying the PD 100% could not have done anything wrong with such limited information. How do you know the police "at best did something shitty" if you don't know the slightest bit of what happened lol. This is one of the busiest ERs in the state. You think the nurses just social media stalk all of their pts in their down time? Come on man. If I were a betting man. I'd bet this guy made a legitimate threat that led to this.
At best they took a guy's guns for something his kid did or violation of a bullshit law. That is shitty, even if legal. I don't really care how they came to be there or why hospital folks were involved past making the original complaint (Another sketchy point). I have worked with those hospital people too, that gives me (And you) no insight into how this nonsense happened unless you happen to know whoever started this personally. This guy made no threat, period. Nobody is alleging he did, what little info we have is his kid might have done something dumb, how are you still defending the cops for taking a guy's guns due to the actions of someone else?
 
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So if the kid made a threat with a gun. Hypothetical. And clearly had access to the gun. What do you think the PD should do to appropriately handle the situation?
I think if a kid made a threat, they should deal with the kid in whatever way is appropriate while bringing nobody else into this nonsense for no reason. How is the father having a gun even material if the kid has been arrested? And if they don't have enough to arrest the kid, then they should go away and stop bothering people.
 
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I think if a kid made a threat, they should deal with the kind in whatever way is appropriate while bringing nobody else into this nonsense for no reason. How is the father having a gun even material if the kid has been arrested? And if they don't have enough to arrest the kid, then they should go away and stop bothering people.
Those are good points you make. I just point out that there is not a lot of info. As a whole BPD is a good group of guys.
 
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"Go get a warrant". That's your best bet to buy some time. Rest assured a**h***s will make some shit up to arrest you no matter what, even to be dismissed later.
 

TayNinh_66

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I think if a kid made a threat, they should deal with the kid in whatever way is appropriate while bringing nobody else into this nonsense for no reason. How is the father having a gun even material
Due to HIPAA privacy regs we'll never know why kid was at hospital. But for several cops to show up at house it's certainly possible he was in ER for for a pysch eval, and possible he threatened staff while there. Possible he posted something threatening online with a picture of a gun. Clearly someone was concerned enough to request a well being check. We'll never know. We do know father left unsecured guns around the house and his son used one of them for a photo. What else was the son planning??? Fully support BPD's confiscation and revoking LTC. Father should know better.
 
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Due to HIPAA privacy regs we'll never know why kid was at hospital. But for several cops to show up at house it's certainly possible he was in ER for for a pysch eval, and possible he threatened staff while there. Possible he posted something threatening online with a picture of a gun. Clearly someone was concerned enough to request a well being check. We'll never know. We do know father left unsecured guns around the house and his son used one of them for a photo. What else was the son planning??? Fully support BPD's confiscation and revoking LTC. Father should know better.
So you support the removing of civil rights from a person because a third party alleges a different person did something wrong? That is pretty thin. Someone at the hospital says you made a threat, so someone else who is not you should lose their rights and have their stuff taken? Was the son living there? Was he on a pysch hold? Was he locked up in the hospital while this all went down? Unless the son was in the house, and had the gun in hand when the cops showed up there is no reason to take guns from the father.

Safe storage laws are bullshit, period. Supporting the removal of fundamental rights based on flimsy nonsense is an indefensible position.
 

TayNinh_66

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So you support the removing of civil rights from a person because a third party alleges a different person did something wrong? That is pretty thin. Someone at the hospital says you made a threat, so someone else who is not you should lose their rights and have their stuff taken? Was the son living there? Was he on a pysch hold? Was he locked up in the hospital while this all went down? Unless the son was in the house, and had the gun in hand when the cops showed up there is no reason to take guns from the father.
Safe storage laws are bullshit, period. Supporting the removal of fundamental rights based on flimsy nonsense is an indefensible position.
"Safe storage laws are bullshit, period" Really??? Guessing you don't have too many kids running around your house.

Father invited the cops in the house and then upstairs. He gave them an unsecured weapon. Son admitted he had access to it. No third party. They were both there. Clear violation of storage law.
(ps: Son lives at home with parents. 9 BR house on the market for 17Mil+)
 
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The "but guns" doctrine is strong. Read MA v. Kelley for an example :(

It would not surprise me if a MA court rules that "taking adverse and unwelcome action against a gun owner to seize his firearms means it would be absurd to allow unmonitored access to guns while he retrieved them for surrender, therefore, this creates an exigent circumstance, and the possibility of the person becoming enraged and using guns not disclosed to the police extends that exigency to a full search.".

It is the very rare in-duh-vidual who can keep it together enough to calmly say "I will bring my guns, ammo and high-cap magazines to the door in closed cases in a non-threatening manner, but I do not consent to granting you entry to these premises." Remember, the first defense to a defective/absent warrant claim is "consent was given" - and the consent can either be explicit or implied like stepping aside without vocalizing a lack of consent.
So you support the removing of civil rights from a person because a third party alleges a different person did something wrong?
I denounce thee a witch!! I mean a communist. Dangerous person, yeah that's what I meant.
 
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"Safe storage laws are bullshit, period" Really??? Guessing you don't have too many kids running around your house.

..snip..
They're absolute bullshit.

So because some shitty parents can't be responsible enough to lock up their guns when there are kids around the rest of us without kids around should be forced to? That's like saying all men should chop off their dicks because some guy somewhere at some point raped some broad. Punishing everyone because of the actions of a few makes so much more sense. :rolleyes:
 
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They're absolute bullshit.
The bullshit is singling out guns. If they are going to impose criminal penalties for storage violations, a non-discriminatory law would be to add prescription drugs, cleaning supplies, power tools, edged instruments, etc. into the list of products you can be arrested for not keeping locked up. And, it is bullshit to (a) Mandate the reporting of gun theft, and (b) Criminally charging if the report indicates guns not locked up. 5th anyone?'

Imagine if the public was told "you will be criminally charged if some yoot breaks into your house and steals your legally prescribed scheduled drugs unless they are contained in a secure locked container and, if convicted, you will never be allowed to possess such drugs even if prescribed". People would not stand for it, but it;s OK with guns because we are fair game.

When I teach classes, I tell students never to report a stolen gun. Report a stolen trigger lock, or stolen locked case, and add "by the way it contained/was attached to a gun".
 
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They're absolute bullshit.
This. Heller covered "safe storage" pretty well, too.

If you have kids in your house you ought not to leave bleach bottles at floor level under the sink, either, but there's no law against it. I wonder how many kids are exposed to nasty chemicals per year versus injured by unattended firearms? I agree - if you've got youngsters it makes sense to keep stuff secured, and teach them well, but as a childless guy living with a licensed adult spouse, post-Heller, who locks his doors, I'm a little confused as to why my pistol needs to be on MY nightstand not the other side of the bed per MGL.
 

Uzi2

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It does appear that he voluntarily let the cops in, voluntarily retrieved the pistol, and the son voluntarily confirmed he had accessed it. Case over.
The complaint makes no assertion that anything was done involuntarily. If he agreed with cops requests they don't need a warrant.
Even if he did refuse, they would probably have obtained a red flag order due to son's behavior at hospital. Guns should have been locked up. No sympathy for former owner.

(I am assuming he has the right to transfer guns to FFL if they're on the "list" but complaint doesn't address that)
A couple of questions for you:

Do you know what the word " intimidation" means?

Of what defensive use is a gun in the home if it cannot be readily accessed?

How long do you think an intruder/s is going to wait for you to unlock your gun and ammo then load it for use when they kick in your front or back door?

How did people survive for centuries with unlocked guns and kids in the home?
 
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i didn't realize a regular patrol officer could suspend a ltc on the spot.....
A couple of questions for you:

Do you know what the word " intimidation" means?

Of what defensive use is a gun in the home if it cannot be readily accessed?

How long do you think an intruder/s is going to wait for you to unlock your gun and ammo then load it for use when they kick in your front or back door?

How did people survive for centuries with unlocked guns and kids in the home?
I agree and all good questions however if you live in Mass you better be prepared for the worst because it's all against you and that's how the state wants it. Even if you shoot someone in self defense it's going to cost you a small fortune in this state.
 

Uzi2

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I agree and all good questions however if you live in Mass you better be prepared for the worst because it's all against you and that's how the state wants it. Even if you shoot someone in self defense it's going to cost you a small fortune in this state.
Another question.......Why would anyone voluntarily remain living under such absurd irrationality?
 

Uzi2

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must be nice to have no commitments.
There's no "commitment" to me that is of any higher priority than to remain alive, using the most efficient means to accomplish that, when/if confronted by another who would take my life.

If you place your "commitments" at a higher priority than your your potential survival, I can't help you.

Think about the situation where a legislator, ( who likely has either a gun or a security detail) passes a law that says YOU OR I must prove our worth and ask permission to have a gun readily accessible to protect ourselves, yet they provide an exemption in that same law to exempt others ( the police who protect them).

If you can justify in your own mind living under the absurd rules/laws imposed by other irrational people, that's ok.

I refuse to do that. No man, no matter what their perceived authority in life is going to force me to place my life and limb at a lower priority than that of one who would do me harm by ignoring all laws.

There are two times in life where a person will wish they had modified their previous behavior......one is when they are standing in judgement before their God and the second is when they are standing in front of a criminal with a gun who is going to kill them.....they will wish they had disobeyed the irrational dictates of government fools and carried a gun anyway.
 
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Woodsy

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Never talk to the police! Never open the door for them! Certainly never let them into your home without a warrant!
This was his first mistake. Allowing any law enforcement in with your permission just opens up a bad can of worms. Informing them they will need to get a search warrant to enter his home would have been best. My guess is because the son (idiot) was posing with the weapon maybe they surmised improper storage from that ? Again the less said the better and if you say nothing the best. A smiling govt official implying you are just helping them, is going to use 100% of what you say and do against you. I Feel bad for the guy , Hes got a long and expensive road ahead.
 
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