"Law Enforcement" Buckshot

[Deleted member 67409]

Got some questions about buckshot as I have only used it twice. Buckshot is illegal for hunting in RI. I've used the green Winchester military grade, high brass 2.75" shells and they had harsh recoil out of a pump.

So my question is how "weak" are "law enforcement" reduced buckshot loads in comparison to those green shells? I'm watching Sinistral Rifleman and he mentions that reduced power buckshot lacks sufficient energy to put down a target at what I judge to be 25 to 40 yards. I'm assuming the targets would go down like a sack of potatoes if shot with high brass 00 buckshot out of a full choke.

@ 3:05



Compared to this video of a ballistic gelatin gummy bear being blown off a table by high brass 00:

 

[weekendracer]

Quite a bit less felt recoil, if similar to what we use.

 

[Deleted member 67409]

Quite a bit less felt recoil, if similar to what we use.

Interesting. I looked it up and Federal LE loads are low brass and travel at 1145fps, whereas military loads are high brass and 1325 fps.

Federal Law Enforcement 12 Gauge Ammo 2-3/4 00 Buckshot 9 Pellets

Winchester Military Grade 12 Gauge 2-3/4" 00 Buckshot 9 Pellets VP

 

[MisterHappy]

Try several brands.

Buck and Slug rounds are engineered to be less comfortable (or, perhaps, it's a secondary concern) than target loads, as you're not going to be shooting 25 -300 (or more, if you're in a shoot-off!) targets in a day with them.

There are a lot of factors that go into the perceived recoil. Part is the load, but burn rate, wad design, fit of the gun, etc., as well as where your head's at when you pull the trigger all make a difference. I've never noticed noise or recoil when shooting at game. I'm sure that in a self-defense situation, it would be the same.

 

[Caveman]

My LE low recoil buckshot rounds are 1125 or so. My hunting buckshot rounds are 1600. My HD are 1400 if I remember correctly. I’ve heard bad things about low recoil buck around penetration or lack there of. Stopped or slowed significantly by heavy leather jacket at 40yd range etc. I wouldn’t use it outside of 15 yds or so. I mostly use it for running drills when I don’t want to be black and blue after. Don’t really trust it for much else.

 

[enbloc]

The only Buckshot I trust my life to...
Federal Premium LE 132 00 with Flight Control wad, 9 pellets 1145fps

Choosing Buckshot for Defense - A Lucky Gunner Guide

 

[Deleted member 67409]

The only Buckshot I trust my life to...

Any specific reason? Only gets 1145fps rather than 1300-1400. Edit: my b, the picture of the box you posted says 1325.

 

[golden chicken]

I just added a limbsaver pad to my Mossberg and now the full power stuff feels like the low recoil stuff.

 

[Retired-LEO]

For home protection I only use Federal PD156. It was designed for home protection.
It does decent damage; without over penetration.
Federal Ammunition - Personal Defense Shotshell - PD156 4B

 

[enbloc]

Any specific reason? Only gets 1145fps rather than 1300-1400. Edit: my b, the picture of the box you posted says 1325.

Lol. just grabbed a photo of the Fed with flight control...
I have shot all three Fed LE labeled 00 with Flight control and found that I can make better follow up shots with the reduced load over the full house load. I feel that this will do me better if needed for more than One adversary. I don't feel short-changed with a slightly less powerful load.

Try it and see for yourself.

~Matt

 

[whacko]

Try several brands.

Buck and Slug rounds are engineered to be less comfortable (or, perhaps, it's a secondary concern) than target loads, as you're not going to be shooting 25 -300 (or more, if you're in a shoot-off!) targets in a day with them.

There are a lot of factors that go into the perceived recoil. Part is the load, but burn rate, wad design, fit of the gun, etc., as well as where your head's at when you pull the trigger all make a difference. I've never noticed noise or recoil when shooting at game. I'm sure that in a self-defense situation, it would be the same.

This^

When I zero my deer gun with slugs it's quite a chore. However I never remember feeling any harsh recoil when shooting a deer.

 

[enbloc]

Ask 10 people what ammo they prefer and you'll get 11 opinions.
Only opinion that matters in the end... is yours.

That's why I like to ask, try, buy.
Exactly what I did with the Fed LE 132 00. Liked it so much through 3 of my HD guns, I bought a case...

~Matt

 

[308rifleman]

View attachment 285359
For home protection I only use Federal PD156. It was designed for home protection.
It does decent damage; without over penetration.
Federal Ammunition - Personal Defense Shotshell - PD156 4B

I use Winchester Super-X slug and buckshot loads in our 870s for defense and hunting. Way too much recoil for my wife. Bruised her shoulder badly, even though she had the gun properly mounted. I use modified chokes in two of the 870s and a full choke in the one that I use for Turkey hunting. Jill uses our Mini 14 for home defense. She has six 10 round magazines stuffed with M193 ball for this purpose. Should be sufficient. Me? I'll stick with my 870s!

 

[MAGA99]

What are you wanting to use buckshot for exactly? IMO, ‘buckshot’ isn’t that great of a choice for hunting, period. If you’re hunting with a shot gun, slugs are pretty tried and true out to any distance you will take a shot at in New England woods.

For home defense there is an argument for bird shot. I side a home, bird shot is almost equal to slug....I wouldn’t volunteer to get hit by either.

Are you just comparing buck shots for shits and giggles?

 

[Deleted member 67409]

What are you wanting to use buckshot for exactly? IMO, ‘buckshot’ isn’t that great of a choice for hunting, period. If you’re hunting with a shot gun, slugs are pretty tried and true out to any distance you will take a shot at in New England woods.

For home defense there is an argument for bird shot. I side a home, bird shot is almost equal to slug....I wouldn’t volunteer to get hit by either.

Are you just comparing buck shots for shits and giggles?

Intellectual curiosity. Like I said in OP, any hunting with buckshot is illegal where I live.

 

[308rifleman]

What are you wanting to use buckshot for exactly? IMO, ‘buckshot’ isn’t that great of a choice for hunting, period. If you’re hunting with a shot gun, slugs are pretty tried and true out to any distance you will take a shot at in New England woods.

For home defense there is an argument for bird shot. I side a home, bird shot is almost equal to slug....I wouldn’t volunteer to get hit by either.

Are you just comparing buck shots for shits and giggles?

No, I just want a vicious shotgun load that is going to kill a home invader in his tracks with as few rounds as possible. OO buck is my choice. Slugs and turkey loads are my hunting rounds.

 

[enbloc]

Intellectual curiosity. Like I said in OP, any hunting with buckshot is illegal where I live.

This may sound very simplistic, and probably is, but I think of 00 Buck as a "one trigger-pull firing squad".
9 .33cal pellets hitting a man's chest all at the same time, whether at 1145fps or 1325fps, is like a man facing a 9-gun firing squad...

 

[MAGA99]

Intellectual curiosity. Like I said in OP, any hunting with buckshot is illegal where I live.

Curiosity is good. I thought buckshot was designed for areas where rifles weren’t permitted, I guess I am wrong on that. I would never hunt deer with it. I did just go out on my ATV with some buck shot to ‘investigate’ the new beaver dam....

Other than that, again, in a cqb situation, I’m not sure buck shot is giving you much of an advantage over low brass bird loads....

 

[Len-2A Training]

So my question is how "weak" are "law enforcement" reduced buckshot loads in comparison to those green shells? I'm watching Sinistral Rifleman and he mentions that reduced power buckshot lacks sufficient energy to put down a target at what I judge to be 25 to 40 yards. I'm assuming the targets would go down like a sack of potatoes if shot with high brass 00 buckshot out of a full choke.

Since you can't hunt with it, it's obvious that you are looking at this for personal defense reasons. I don't know RI laws, but I will say in general that in the Northeast if you are shooting someone 25-40 yds away you are going to have a real bad time in court trying to make a "self-defense" defense. Also there better not be anyone else in the general vicinity or you have an irresponsible risk of hitting innocents.

This may sound very simplistic, and probably is, but I think of 00 Buck as a "one trigger-pull firing squad".
9 .33cal pellets hitting a man's chest all at the same time, whether at 1145fps or 1325fps, is like a man facing a 9-gun firing squad...

At 25-40 yds, those 9 pellets are going to be very spread out, so one or two may hit a man's chest . . . do you know where the other 7 will go?

Military may use more potent buckshot rounds but the general assumption in warfare is that everyone in front of that gun barrel is the enemy . . . not so in a civilian situation!

 

[Deleted member 67409]

Since you can't hunt with it, it's obvious that you are looking at this for personal defense reasons. I don't know RI laws, but I will say in general that in the Northeast if you are shooting someone 25-40 yds away you are going to have a real bad time in court trying to make a "self-defense" defense. Also there better not be anyone else in the general vicinity or you have an irresponsible risk of hitting innocents.

Not interested in buckshot for HD/SD or the legality thereof, just curiosity. Spent yesterday binge watching Sinistral Rifleman on YouTube and he specializes in Trooper-style 3-gun and 2-gun. If you watch InRangeTV, Russel (Sinistral) will fill in for Ian at matches with Karl. If you watch the first video I posted, Russel comments that at the ranges the competitors were shooting at, LE buckshot can't knock down steel targets. I'm curious about: 1) how underpowered LE buckshot is (answer: not effective beyond 15 yards); and 2) how far military buckshot shot out of a full choke can take down a target.

Not interested in close shooting, but far shooting. Only thing I would be shooting would be steel or paper targets on a range and they don't sue

 

[whacko]

Curiosity is good. I thought buckshot was designed for areas where rifles weren’t permitted, I guess I am wrong on that. I would never hunt deer with it. I did just go out on my ATV with some buck shot to ‘investigate’ the new beaver dam....

Other than that, again, in a cqb situation, I’m not sure buck shot is giving you much of an advantage over low brass bird loads....

Buckshot is designed to kill a deer sized animal (hence the name BUCK shot) at closer ranges when the animal is moving. It's not a substandard choice to a rifle.....in certain hunting applications it is the optimal choice rather than a rifle...... like hunting in thick cover where your shots will be in close and need to be made quickly.

If mass were to change regs and allow rifles on deer for example.....I'd still use a shotgun for about 90% of the areas I hunt. Thick laurel patches and tight woods. For deer hunting a rifle is not always better.

 

[whacko]

Not interested in buckshot for HD/SD or the legality thereof, just curiosity. Spent yesterday binge watching Sinistral Rifleman on YouTube and he specializes in Trooper-style 3-gun and 2-gun. If you watch InRangeTV, Russel (Sinistral) will fill in for Ian at matches with Karl. If you watch the first video I posted, Russel comments that at the ranges the competitors were shooting at, LE buckshot can't knock down steel targets. I'm curious about: 1) how underpowered LE buckshot is (answer: not effective beyond 15 yards); and 2) how far military buckshot shot out of a full choke can take down a target.

Not interested in close shooting, but far shooting. Only thing I would be shooting would be steel or paper targets on a range and they don't sue

Then buckshot is a poor ammunition choice.

Here is a great video on the subject of buckshot range


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ny67ZNy4zwQ&t=1467s

 

[Len-2A Training]

Not interested in buckshot for HD/SD or the legality thereof, just curiosity. Spent yesterday binge watching Sinistral Rifleman on YouTube and he specializes in Trooper-style 3-gun and 2-gun. If you watch InRangeTV, Russel (Sinistral) will fill in for Ian at matches with Karl. If you watch the first video I posted, Russel comments that at the ranges the competitors were shooting at, LE buckshot can't knock down steel targets. I'm curious about: 1) how underpowered LE buckshot is (answer: not effective beyond 15 yards); and 2) how far military buckshot shot out of a full choke can take down a target.

Not interested in close shooting, but far shooting. Only thing I would be shooting would be steel or paper targets on a range and they don't sue

Gotcha. I see your point and in that case understand the desire for more knock-down power.

 

[Dennis in MA]

I ain't never hunted them LE's so I'd not know how effective it is.

If you're planning on shooting someone at 25yds. . . with a shotgun or any other weapon. . . . in a defensive situation. . . . . you're going to have a hard time. Period.


I've got some old-ish Estate buckshot that is low on recoil and groups well. I've also got some low-recoil (I think) slugs. Seems those might make more sense in a defensive situation.

 

[Warm_Garand]

Military buckshot and law enforcement buckshot are each suited for their intended purposes and tactical constraints.

Law enforcement buckshot is designed for close-to-medium quarters application in a crowded urban environment, and the power has been slightly reduced so as to reduce the chances of overpenetration (not a mil concern) and also to facilitate follow-up shots.

Federal LE buckshot with the "Flight Control Wad" is a very impressive product.

This is a 30 yard shot pattern from a low-budget, nothing-special 590A1:





Riley has sleeves of 50 for $32. if anybody is interested.

Old Painless (retired LEO) advocates for #1 Buck for defensive shotgun use:

The Box O' Truth #56 - Federal Flight Control #1 Buckshot - The Box O' Truth

It is hard to find, but TargetSports gets it in occasionally:

Federal LE Tactical 12 Gauge Ammo 2-3/4" 1 Buckshot 15 Pellets

 

[Len-2A Training]

Military buckshot and law enforcement buckshot are each suited for their intended purposes and tactical constraints.

Law enforcement buckshot is designed for close-to-medium quarters application in a crowded urban environment, and the power has been slightly reduced so as to reduce the chances of overpenetration (not a mil concern) and also to facilitate follow-up shots.

Federal LE buckshot with the "Flight Control Wad" is a very impressive product.

This is a 30 yard shot pattern from a low-budget, nothing-special 590A1:





Riley has sleeves of 50 for $32. if anybody is interested.

Old Painless (retired LEO) advocates for #1 Buck for defensive shotgun use:

The Box O' Truth #56 - Federal Flight Control #1 Buckshot - The Box O' Truth

It is hard to find, but TargetSports gets it in occasionally:

Federal LE Tactical 12 Gauge Ammo 2-3/4" 1 Buckshot 15 Pellets

Thank you for those targets, I'd never expect that tight of a pattern out at those distances if I hadn't seen your targets.

 

[Warm_Garand]

Thank you for those targets, I'd never expect that tight of a pattern out at those distances if I hadn't seen your targets.

The "flight control wad" has been a game-changer.

If you own a shotgun, it's absolutely worth patterning a box.

My BIL's nothing-special 590 throws a perfectly-even pie plate at 30 yards.

 

[enbloc]

At 25-40 yds, those 9 pellets are going to be very spread out, so one or two may hit a man's chest . . . do you know where the other 7 will go?

I actually pattered the Fed LE 132 00 with Flight Control at 25feet (longest shootable distance in my home) in my main HD shottie (IAC Hawk 982) and I got all 9 pellets in an area slightly larger than my fist... consistently (only "flyer" was the wad....) So, I'm good with it...

As far as I'm concerned this load did for Buckshot what a rifled barrel and the minie-ball did for the rifle.

Len. if you have not tried this load, you really should. It will make a believer out of you!

~Matt

 

[45collector]

This^

When I zero my deer gun with slugs it's quite a chore. However I never remember feeling any harsh recoil when shooting a deer.

Same. When that animal comes into view and you realize you're about to get a good shot on it, adrenaline starts pumping and whatever recoil that shotgun puts out will not even be registered.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Matt, I have that ammo, but have been using my generic stuff. Haven't used the shotgun since the Monadnock Shoots. Long time ago I patterned the generic at 7 yds just for curiosity.