Knife vs gun 21 foot rule.

Dadstoys

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If you really want to rattle the cage of a " You don't need a gun, just call the police. " dummy, have them count to 5 out loud while you fake stab them as many times as you can with something like a rolled up newspaper.
That's how many times I could have stabbed you in 5 secounds.
The cops won't be here for another 5 minutes on the best day.
Want to keep going ?
It makes the point.
 
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If you really want to rattle the cage of a " You don't need a gun, just call the police. " dummy, have them count to 5 out loud while you fake stab them as many times as you can with something like a rolled up newspaper.
That's how many times I could have stabbed you in 5 secounds.
The cops won't be here for another 5 minutes on the best day.
Want to keep going ?
It makes the point.
when my MIL asked why I keep guns in the house I handed her 2 full gallon jugs. Told her to hold them over her head for 5 minutes. While tapping her on the knee cap, I asked her how long she's willing to let an attacker beat on her daughter while waiting for the cops to respond. Later that day, she asked me to to take her to the range.
 
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A problem is a lot of people think of a knife attack as what they have seen in a dojo. Person A stands there with a dummy knife, and on que "attacks" person B at less than full speed, and less than full power, with a dull knife substitute while person "B" applies the techniques the black belt just demonstrated. After a few practice runs, person "B" feels somewhat equipped to defend against a knife attack without having a clue as to the speed or ferocity of an actual attack by a trained and motivated adversary.

Try some of those dojo techniques on someone attacking like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHSXZnxLZ0I, and you'll understand why even a black belt would use his gun.
 
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It is important to note that a knife stab isn't immediately fatal for a good number of stabbings. Julius Caesar was stabbed 23 times and eventually bled out. Point being, if you are stabbed, it would be wise to stay in the fight.

According to Plutarch, as Caesar arrived at the Senate, Lucius Tillius Cimber presented him with a petition to recall his exiled brother.[SUP][10][/SUP] The other conspirators crowded round to offer their support. Both Plutarch and Suetoniussay that Caesar waved him away, but Cimber grabbed Caesar's shoulders and pulled down Caesar's tunic. Caesar then cried to Cimber, "Why, this is violence!" ("Ista quidem vis est!").[SUP][11][/SUP] At the same time, Casca produced his dagger and made a glancing thrust at the dictator's neck. Caesar turned around quickly and caught Casca by the arm. According to Plutarch, he said in Latin, "Casca, you villain, what are you doing?"[SUP][12][/SUP] Casca, frightened, shouted "Help, brother!" in Greek ("ἀδελφέ, βοήθει", "adelphe, boethei"). Within moments, the entire group, including Brutus, was stabbing the dictator. Caesar attempted to get away, but, blinded by blood in his eyes, he tripped and fell; the men continued stabbing him as he lay defenseless on the lower steps of the portico. According to Eutropius, sixty or more men participated in the assassination. Caesar was stabbed 23 times.[SUP][13][/SUP] Suetonius relates that a physician who performed an autopsy on Caesar established that only one wound (the second one to his chest that pierced his aorta)) had been fatal. This autopsy report (the earliest known post-mortem report in history) describes that Caesar's death was mostly attributable to blood loss from his stab wounds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Julius_Caesar
 
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Action always beats reaction.

Turn the tables and let the gunslinger be the aggressor against the guy with the knife. The initiator of violence almost always scores the first hit

sure, but you also are the first to go to jail if you are "the aggressor", so there is a very fine line we walk.
 
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If anyone actually plans to , like , try it in training , try this : once or twice just race the guy , in place , to draw and fire a ( safe/simulated/air soft/don't-be-stupid) pistol vs knife @21'. Lose most likely.

Then try it with a little more pro-active physicality. Against a right handed attack step 45 degrees forward to his weak side - your own right. You'll find a lot more time is yours doing this.

Use the time to fight , get your own weapon drawn , or run like hell.
 
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Training, Training, Training. Hand to hand skills are every bit as important as armed skills. Most likely it will be a surprise attack so situational awareness is huge. It's easier to defend an attack if you know it is coming. More than likely you will not know. You have to be ready to fight or run depending on your split second assessment of the situation.

Going to the range and shooting one round every second or two from a standing or sitting position is not training. That is just getting familiar with your firearm.
 

EMTDAD

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A problem is a lot of people think of a knife attack as what they have seen in a dojo. Person A stands there with a dummy knife, and on que "attacks" person B at less than full speed, and less than full power, with a dull knife substitute while person "B" applies the techniques the black belt just demonstrated. After a few practice runs, person "B" feels somewhat equipped to defend against a knife attack without having a clue as to the speed or ferocity of an actual attack by a trained and motivated adversary.

Try some of those dojo techniques on someone attacking like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHSXZnxLZ0I, and you'll understand why even a black belt would use his gun.

I think there are two scenarios... the one like in Taunton where some whackjob with a knife hellbent on a massacre just stabs random people.. The other scenario is more likely, like a domestic violence case where the attacker may have some hesitation on what is going on. Or some confrontation where there's a verbal disagreement, one person pulls a knife, threatening before attacking. I would say the odds of getting attacked by a TRAINED knife fighter are pretty slim.

Martial arts training obviously isn't going to start off at full speed, but a quality instructor will continue to work on those techniques, increasing speed, randomness, and ferocity. I mean, there's a reason why the Israeli army still trains in Krav Maga. My old TKD instructor was a 6th deg master also trained in other areas. He taught military forces. I have a feeling he'd do pretty well against a knife attack, IF he had the time to recognize it.

But in generally, you are correct.. 10 minutes of knife defense techniques does not make you an expert to anything other than try to diffuse and escape.
 
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I took a handgun course where the instructor had us line up against a target 21' away with a blue gun in our holsters. He stood next to the target and the idea was that we were to draw and "fire" before he reached us. Nobody came close. A couple of people managed to clear their holsters. I retreated while attempting my draw and cleared, but didn't make a shot. Lesson learned is that a person holding a knife is a threat much further than most people think they are.
 
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My goal in a font on knife attack is to ready for the attack and grab the knife hand of the attacker while falling backwards and using my feet and legs and use the attackers momentum to propel the attacker over me onto his back. (James T. Kirk was the best at this move). After that a few tactical rolls away from the attacker while simultaneously drawing my firearm....pop two caps and go have a beer.

If you can't do that then you are not ready.
 

allen-1

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My goal in a font on knife attack is to ready for the attack and grab the knife hand of the attacker while falling backwards and using my feet and legs and use the attackers momentum to propel the attacker over me onto his back. (James T. Kirk was the best at this move). After that a few tactical rolls away from the attacker while simultaneously drawing my firearm....pop two caps and go have a beer.

If you can't do that then you are not ready.

Have a plan B ready for when you're in a crowd or against a wall, or somewhere else where there's no room to fall backwards...
 

GlockJock

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If you really want to rattle the cage of a " You don't need a gun, just call the police. " dummy, have them count to 5 out loud while you fake stab them as many times as you can with something like a rolled up newspaper.
That's how many times I could have stabbed you in 5 secounds.
The cops won't be here for another 5 minutes on the best day.
Want to keep going ?
It makes the point.
I was a police dispatcher years ago (thankfully got a much better job) and I watched five cops - five of the only seven on duty in the town, including a Sergeant - standing watching the Pats-Carolina Super Bowl in the office across the hall from dispatch, as I was dispatching a "Priority One" (as in "Go time"... "Help, police! Help!!) panic alarm from a residence across town ...
All five SuperCops stood and watched the winning drive and the Vinatieri field goal before, um, "running" (imagine Sergeant Schultz jogging from Klink's office to the barracks) to their cruisers and heading out to protect and serve, lights flashing & sirens blaring etc etc...

I'd even yelled in to them "Panic Alarm, ___ Street" and all five glared at me like I'd rudely interrupted their life and continued watching til the kick sailed thru the uprights. Turned out to be an elderly woman who'd heard a crash in the back of the house (wind broke a branch which in turn broke a window), but could have been a rape in progress, for all the "heroes" knew...

"Relax, lady. We're coming!"
 
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I took a handgun course where the instructor had us line up against a target 21' away with a blue gun in our holsters. He stood next to the target and the idea was that we were to draw and "fire" before he reached us. Nobody came close. A couple of people managed to clear their holsters. I retreated while attempting my draw and cleared, but didn't make a shot. Lesson learned is that a person holding a knife is a threat much further than most people think they are.
I've run a similar drill with friends. It is one of the things that convinced me that carrying without a round in the chamber is almost like not carrying at all. When milliseconds count, you don't have time to rack the slide.
 
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Have a plan B ready for when you're in a crowd or against a wall, or somewhere else where there's no room to fall backwards...


lol I know. definately need to have more plans. Right now my only plan is to channel my inner James Tiberius Kirk...lmao
 

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Unfortunately, many LEOs take this to mean that if you are pointing a gun at a suspect holding a knife within 21 feet and he doesn't drop it on command, it's OK to shoot.

Yup. This is STILL the thought process its un****ingbelievable.
 
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But in generally, you are correct.. 10 minutes of knife defense techniques does not make you an expert to anything other than try to diffuse and escape.
I have no doubt that there are advanced practicioners who can capably defend unarmed against a knife. A problem with martial arts instruction is that, in many cases, it can lead a decent mid-level artist to feel he is more prepared for such a situation than is actually the case.
 
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I have no doubt that there are advanced practicioners who can capably defend unarmed against a knife. A problem with martial arts instruction is that, in many cases, it can lead a decent mid-level artist to feel he is more prepared for such a situation than is actually the case.

Better be somewhat prepared than not prepared at all.
 
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We used to mount a target on a little red wagon and pull it toward the shooter for training. Rope on the handle and the target was a reactive target that had to fall to pass the test. Took a IPSC target and glued a empty toilet paper roll vertical about shoulder high. Run a string from the support beam down through the tube to a balloon blown up to about the size of vitals. Put a shirt over all of it and as it came at you the point was to bust the balloon, shirt made it so you couldn't see where you are hitting.
 
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