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Knife V. Gun

mursenary4

mursenary4

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In response to a certain thread that was recently closed **cough cough** some one brought up dealing with a threat that is carrying a knife. I immediately thought of this video on saw on FunkerTactical's youtube account. It features Doug Marcaida and "Instructor Zero" (a little too mall ninja for my taste but extremely talented marksman if you watch some of his videos). This video is just one of a series of videos but I found it to the most helpful to gun owners who conceal carry. You will see at the beginning of the video Zero is having difficulty finding a way to avoid the charging Marcaida. However, by going to the ground he quickly creates distance and is able to draw his weapon and fire effectively. Throughout the series the two work through several different scenarios. I hope you find this video helpful: ps skip to the first minute to avoid the ghey intro
 
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Reminds me of the Indiana Jones scene where the guy is spinning the sword around, and Indy just draws and shoots him.
 
The dropping to the floor method seems pretty effective, but pretty critical to make the draw then because you are committed to being on the ground and not running away. This guy is very fast.
 
Tactical floor roll !
210_animated_ninja.gif
 
The tests are incomplete with to many holes in the concept. Invalid conclusion.
 
Makes sense, tho. The gunfighter may (or may not) get cut or stabbed at some point, but the knife guy is toast. I made the argument pro gunfighter in the other thread. This seems to confirm it. The knife guys here, keep in mind they are BOTH experts in their field. Doesn't seem inconclusive to me, it's pretty cut and dry.
 
Interesting video. The major flaw is that the shooter knows what is going to happen before hand. His reaction time is really not valid as he knows what is coming. Google the "21 foot rule" in an edged weapon attack.
 
too many possible variables in a real world scenario. This video, while interesting and educational doesn't prove too much. Not many people are at their level.
 
jdp29 said:
too many possible variables in a real world scenario. This video, while interesting and educational doesn't prove too much. Not many people are at their level.
Click to expand...
Yup!!

Unless this is your profession, don't mess with this stuff. If you must find out the truth for
yourself be prepared for disappointment on both the gun side and the knife side. And the training hurts, because without a pain there is no truth.
 
as cheesy as the roll and the falling backwards look its simple and clearly efective for giving you that extra time and distance you may need when caught off guard. good video
 
jmjkd said:
Yup!!

Unless this is your profession, don't mess with this stuff. If you must find out the truth for
yourself be prepared for disappointment on both the gun side and the knife side. And the training hurts, because without a pain there is no truth.
Click to expand...

I agree with you. As I stated in the OP there are a number of videos between these two guys about the subject. They explore several other scenarios, many which greatly favor the knife attacker. I simply chose this video because I found it the most useful to the NES community
 
I love guns but hand guns are not the magic panacea most people wish they were. Knives are a tremendous threat and should never be discounted.
 
mursenary4 said:
I agree with you. As I stated in the OP there are a number of videos between these two guys about the subject. They explore several other scenarios, many which greatly favor the knife attacker. I simply chose this video because I found it the most useful to the NES community
Click to expand...

I understand you wanted NES to see something. But it is misleading, and allows people to form invalid options based on idea rather then experience. Mainly do to the vid leading them down this narrow minded path.
Three things must be present for authenticity.
Timing, distance and resistance. The resistance is missing. It's like explaining the use of a hammer. The grip, the swing, but you exclude the hitting of the nail. And that contact is what makes it.

Mursenary4 . I think your heart was in the right place the fault lies in the performers.
 
Unless I missed something, I didn't hear either guy make any definitive assertions. It was simply, "This is my method, and here is how it would apply to this scenario". And that's the way it should be. Agent Zero (hopefully) learned after the first exchange, that he was not as quick on the draw as he thought he was, and adjusted his tactic.
 
While I can see the validity in what the guy did by doing that tactical roll/fall, it is a flawed technique in most real world environments where falling on a curb, rock, broken glass, or any multitude of other things could cause crippling pain, or injury to YOU, even before getting off a shot. Also, not sure if anyone else noticed in the slo-mo, he actually could have shot his own leg, or foot in the position he took. He definitely muzzle swept his own lower extremities during that maneuver! I would chalk this up as being a risky, but possibly decent option in the right circumstance, but in the real world the odds of you ever having that are slim to none, not to mention actually having that as muscle memory if you haven't practiced doing that over and over again!
 
I think within the 21 feet, anything can happen. The real proof would be If these guys did it for real with live ammo and a sharp knife, actually trying to kill each other, 100 times. For obvious reasons, this can't be done. Each would win and lose some and both would probably be injured at the end of most exchanges.

Stupid things happen in real fights as well as training. Your pistol gets hung up on your vest when you draw, your grip is not right and you drop the gun when you draw (I've done that) and your knife gets caught up in your shirt when you try and pull it. Shit happens.

There are also many videos online of guys getting shot several times in the chest and walking away. They may bleed out a couple minutes later, but that doesn't do you any good when some lunatic is trying to peel your face off.

I would definitely say that the attacker will always have the advantage because action is always faster than reaction. All other things being equal, I will take a pistol over a knife simply because it is more likely to get an instant kill (medulla oblongata (sp?), spine, etc.) than a knife.
 
There is an easy way to define this training and validate it's effectiveness.
Put the gunner in the shark tank.
Five guys with bad intentions with boxing gloves on ( not even a knife yet) circle him continually faking the attack. When I call a persons number they randomly attack. Now maybe the gunner can do his practiced trick roll but most likely not because he has to respond to the unorthodoxy frantic action.
Now you will see un-justified deployment, rolling when a fake occurred and so fourth.
In addition the attacker will not stop, he is committed to punching you in the face, what does that do to the gunner? Puts him under extreme stress knowing if he f**kes up this big dude will rain down punches. Now you will see what is truly valid.
It all fun and games until you get punched in the face.
 
jmjkd said:
There is an easy way to define this training and validate it's effectiveness.
Put the gunner in the shark tank.
Five guys with bad intentions with boxing gloves on ( not even a knife yet) circle him continually faking the attack. When I call a persons number they randomly attack. Now maybe the gunner can do his practiced trick roll but most likely not because he has to respond to the unorthodoxy frantic action.
Now you will see un-justified deployment, rolling when a fake occurred and so fourth.
In addition the attacker will not stop, he is committed to punching you in the face, what does that do to the gunner? Puts him under extreme stress knowing if he f**kes up this big dude will rain down punches. Now you will see what is truly valid.
It all fun and games until you get punched in the face.
Click to expand...

Agreed, whole different drill when someone is trying to bust your teeth in for real, never mind a knife attack. The best training I have ever had/seen is with Tom Sotis of AMOK!. About as real as you can get. Knives are about as nasty as you can get. Someone with ZERO experience can cut you up.
 
I like the drop to the floor because you know -for certain- if someone attacks me with a knife one way or the other I'm winding up down on the floor. I might as well go there intentionally before the fainting starts. :)
 
I think the nasty reality is both people are going to get hurt. I think the advantage goes to A) the attacker because he gets the head start and the element of surprise, and B) the guy with the gun as he has the most stopping power.

Another words, if surprise attacked with a knife, someone with a gun will likely win, but at the cost of great injury. If surprise attacked with a gun, the advantage is insurmountable.

Then there are the real world variables, and that just makes it a mess to figure out. Is it a surprise attack? I think in most real world scenarios people don't just walk up to strangers and kill them, although it does happen.
 
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My grandfather was shot 9 times on three occasions. 1 round to the shoulder in Mexico, 1 to the abdomen in Cuba and 7 in the leg in Europe. All were hi powered rifle rounds. Went on to father 7 children. A good point was made earlier that most times when someone is shot they are still in the fight long enough to kill you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04dUCT-qO3c

Ya I know a knife would have been useless here but for those guys that think it will be lights out for the bad guy because they are carrying the latest and greatest pocket 9mm it is often just not reality.
 
Agreed, whole different drill when someone is trying to bust your teeth in for real, never mind a knife attack. The best training I have ever had/seen is with Tom Sotis of AMOK!. About as real as you can get. Knives are about as nasty as you can get. Someone with ZERO experience can cut you up.[/QUOTE]

Tom a is a good friend of mine and we are both cut from the same cloth. Great guy, great teacher.
If you did some training with him, you are on the right track. Did you ever train with Leo Gaje?
He's another mad man you should check out.
There really isn't a lot of us, but if anyone is really interested in knife work. Learn from someone who is in the field. Many do FMA but that still doesn't mean s**t. You have to find the right person.

I agree. The first in usually has the advantage, and they come un-announced fast and hard.
Knife fighting is not just using your knife, you add in punches, kicks, elbows, headbutts, knees ,clinch and ground fighting. In other words an MMA fighter holding a sharp blade.
If you can't fight with out a knife you can't fight with a knife. It's all one unite.
First become a fight.
Become a fighter with a knife
become a fighter with a knife who carries a gun. And so on.
Here is a clip I did a few yrs back. The quality s**ks, but I think I get my point across. Hope this helps.

http:/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhVQFdFPUBo[QUOTE=jdp29;3795892
 
Guys, guys, guys.... The BEST defense against a knife is made by Asics and Nike.
Run, Forrest, run!
First rule of "how to win a fight"? Don't show up to the fight.
 
frenchman said:
Guys, guys, guys.... The BEST defense against a knife is made by Asics and Nike.
Run, Forrest, run!
First rule of "how to win a fight"? Don't show up to the fight.
Click to expand...

Maybe in a perfect world.
I don't think many of us go out looking for a fight.
What if you are with your wife and kids, or your elderly mother. just run?
No! You protect your family.
Americans don't run, we stand for what's right. That's how we built this country.
The giving in and giving up our arms is not an option.
I know many have seen the ugly, but that doesn't mean it no longer exist.
 

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