Kalashnikov felt guilt

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....... Flame on, I had an AK-47 issued to me, and almost lost my right eye in combat because of it. Hated the thing then and hate it now.

From incoming fire hitting rocks in front of me. Kandahar area. Locals armed with AK-47, every single one of them.

Something about these two statements does not compute.


Sent from my phone....which isn't really a phone anymore, it's a computer on my pocket
 
Ya and there were no wars or violence before this rifle was made, except for the roman wars, and the crusades, well the whole dark ages in general was quite violent, and then all that revolution stuff that happend, then the following the civil wars

Ya it was soooo perfect before the ak
 
By this logic trees should feel guilty for people killed by spears and arrows.
 
Something about these two statements does not compute.

Yes.... I hereby award those posts with this... the X ray arms girl...

"What the hell.... it doesn't even make sense... how the **** can someone have x-rays for arms????"

xray.jpg
 
so did I. No need for misinformed bullshit like his.

Just for the record - when I read this I went and looked it up, and found quite a bit of stuff out there on the intarwebs that would seem to support what Hessy said.

I'm not trying to defend him - just pointing out that what he's saying seems perfectly plausible - to me - based on what I read.

If you truly want to make somebody look like an idiot - the best way is to PROVE them wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt.

So since you two guys (Boris and flintoid) - seem to be knowledgeable about this subject, maybe this is as good a place as any to put the bullshit to rest and put all the relevant information up about what the truth is about the Kalashnikov / Hugo Schmeisser relationship and put this stuff to bed once and for all.

I for one am interested to find out what the real deal is.
 
Even within Reich, there were quite a few choices of rounds that were explored. Many choices. What people forget is the context. It's not so much about the rifle, but the need of that particular country, access to resources and infrastructure plus some twists of fate. 7.92x45 or 30?? Was that stolen too? The reality is every self-respecting .mil studies designs from other countries. It's a fact of life.

Yes, Hatcher talks about this in the Garand book. There's one section where he details how some of the people involved in evaluating whether to go with a smaller caliber cartridge did a European tour and looked at what was being used over there. In many cases the caliber that was being used was remarkably similar. Which you would probably expect if everybody had done the same type of testing (you'd reach the same conclusion).
 
Boris, no need to get too emotional and horseshit me or send private messages. I have been to places, including both Kovrov and Izhevsk. Discussion ends here.
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Boris, there are many people on this forum who may have a different information. I am surprised by your defense of the old Soviet myth about "invented in Soviet Union". As you may know Soviet Union kept German prisoners as well as patents and technology (including entire German manufacturing plants) during the war and after the war. Mr. Kalashnikov was used by Stalin as many other legends intended to boost moral of oppressed masses. Mr. Kalashnikov never invented anything else and he was peddling vodka during Putin's times. Kalashnikovs, weapons, were also manufactured in other countries of the Warsaw Pact. These were the actual weapons sold to other "global comrades". Those manufacturers created many improvements and used materials not always available in the Soviet Union. Nobody is disputing the quality of the weapon or "management" by Mr. Kalashnikov but I would exercise caution when assigning the entire invention to him. I do object to your description of how captured Germans were "managed" by KGB. You are wrong there!
 
For those who can read Russian, I would recommend this link:
http://ehorussia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1238
I can add that I worked for a patent institute in Moscow and had access to (still unavailable) Soviet archive documents in the mid-80-th and can state for sure re the huge role of captive German engineers at Izhevsk place in the transition of the unsuccessful AK-46 into "AK-47" as well as successful implementation of the stamping technology. Bulkin did copy the Garand, for those who are interested. Михаил Тимофеевич has been an impostor all his life, for sure, and did not invent anything before or after AK-47. I cannot understand why it is so offensive to the Forum members to simply comprehend that. Do you think the atomic bomb was invented in USSR?
Also, it would be good to show some respect to war veterans, even if those were foreign wars for all the wrong reasons.
Best to all.
 
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Just for the record - when I read this I went and looked it up, and found quite a bit of stuff out there on the intarwebs that would seem to support what Hessy said.

I'm not trying to defend him - just pointing out that what he's saying seems perfectly plausible - to me - based on what I read.

If you truly want to make somebody look like an idiot - the best way is to PROVE them wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt.

So since you two guys (Boris and flintoid) - seem to be knowledgeable about this subject, maybe this is as good a place as any to put the bullshit to rest and put all the relevant information up about what the truth is about the Kalashnikov / Hugo Schmeisser relationship and put this stuff to bed once and for all.

I for one am interested to find out what the real deal is.


yes, there are ton of mis/info on any topic, and this StG / AK is particularly painful as I see people (not you) with obvious lack of understanding how engineering groups works, how products are designed to rant lies without any back up.



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Boris, there are many people on this forum who may have a different information. I am surprised by your defense of the old Soviet myth about "invented in Soviet Union". As you may know Soviet Union kept German prisoners as well as patents and technology (including entire German manufacturing plants) during the war and after the war. Mr. Kalashnikov was used by Stalin as many other legends intended to boost moral of oppressed masses. Mr. Kalashnikov never invented anything else and he was peddling vodka during Putin's times. Kalashnikovs, weapons, were also manufactured in other countries of the Warsaw Pact. These were the actual weapons sold to other "global comrades". Those manufacturers created many improvements and used materials not always available in the Soviet Union. Nobody is disputing the quality of the weapon or "management" by Mr. Kalashnikov but I would exercise caution when assigning the entire invention to him. I do object to your description of how captured Germans were "managed" by KGB. You are wrong there!


Actually Kalashnikov did a lot of other less known and less significant improvements to other arms/machanics which was the reason why he was eventually directed as someone with good potential. How many people don't even realize that PKM's K stand for Kalashnikov?


For those who can read Russian, I would recommend this link:
http://ehorussia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1238
I can add that I worked for a patent institute in Moscow and had access to (still unavailable) Soviet archive documents in the mid-80-th and can state for sure re the huge role of captive German engineers at Izhevsk place in the transition of the unsuccessful AK-46 into "AK-47" as well as successful implementation of the stamping technology. Bulkin did copy the Garand, for those who are interested. Михаил Тимофеевич has been an impostor all his life, for sure, and did not invent anything before or after AK-47. I cannot understand why it is so offensive to the Forum members to simply comprehend that. Do you think the atomic bomb was invented in USSR?
Also, it would be good to show some respect to war veterans, even if those were foreign wars for all the wrong reasons.
Best to all.


Well, if you bring in your "personal" experience as evidence, then you open the floodgates to scrutinize your "person".

You claim to see some mysterious documents, "been" to places. So tell me which Izhevsk factory did the captive German engineers worked at, what were their names (at least a couple) and what exactly they accomplished? Some examples please of these mysterious things please? You level some hefty accusations of lies, hypocrisy and plagiarism. Please back it up.
 
This is one of those rare arguments where I actually learn something.
 
for those NESer who are engineers, you know that big products are not made by a single person, be it software or anything mechanical. For those who aren't, the "bureau" is a collection of not one team, but many teams of engineers with advanced degrees in ballistics, metallurgy, industrial production, plus a whole boatload of technicians, drafts people, mechanics etc. Kalashnikov was a down to earth guy, well respected who was also a good organizer and a manager, to get shit done. They had to "steal" concepts like trigger, barrel and gunpowder to "invent" AK, and they also knew the products their competitors had.

Heesy's article: http://ehorussia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1238, is a regurgitation of the same text, from various sites that strive to get some shocking value of tabloids "OMFG, he is gay" or "Stalin was an alien" "Germans invented AK"

Here is another shocker in case you did not know. Many if not most German engineers under Soviet control were "volunteered" to serve back in the homeland as a reparation. Most if not all of that work was on pretty mundane things and manufacturing civilian goods. But of course that doesn't make headlines.

If you are really into Hessy's link, then explain this bit about Hugo complaining about his reduced salary and shitty living conditions. His salary was reduced twice while he was at Izhevsk following bad performance reviews. In other words comrades did not see much benefit in this guy, unlike some of his other "better cooperating" comrades.


Kalashnikov has proven himself in his deeds, first giving up his life in combat on the front lines and then giving it up to work in obscurity for most of his life. I don't see anyone dispute that. To come and spew this vile accusations of him being a fraud, a liar, a nobody is just beyond insulting, especially if the best argument to back it up sounds like "I've been to Kovrov" "I saw SOME documents in some archives in Moscow"
 
There are some really good books like Full Circle and "Sturmgewehr! From Firepower to Striking Power". They are not cheap books, but when you read them you know why. They were written by guys who don't write cheap blogs to entertain sheeple. There is some really deep research there. If you really want to learn something, read them, not some regurgitated shit off internet.

The other funny thing is that both Verner Gruner and Kurt Horn (MG42) were at Izhmash or should I say factory #74, as it was actually known at the time and it was not a single entity either. It seems like their salaries weren't cut, yet no references to Gruner invented AK? May be because AK doesn't look like MG42? [rofl]
 
Boris posted:
"Kalashnikov has proven himself in his deeds, first giving up his life in combat on the front lines and then giving it up to work in obscurity for most of his life. I don't see anyone dispute that. To come and spew this vile accusations of him being a fraud, a liar, a nobody is just beyond insulting, especially if the best argument to back it up sounds like "I've been to Kovrov" "I saw SOME documents in some archives in Moscow"
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Boris, I dispute everything you have posted related to this matter. I am very sorry but I refuse to repeat Soviet propaganda. Kalashnikov belongs to the same group of Soviet legendary cast of characters as P.Morozov and Stachanov. They were Stalin's inventions. Western media picked that up and ran with it (as usual).
 
Boris posted:
"Kalashnikov has proven himself in his deeds, first giving up his life in combat on the front lines and then giving it up to work in obscurity for most of his life. I don't see anyone dispute that. To come and spew this vile accusations of him being a fraud, a liar, a nobody is just beyond insulting, especially if the best argument to back it up sounds like "I've been to Kovrov" "I saw SOME documents in some archives in Moscow"
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Boris, I dispute everything you have posted related to this matter. I am very sorry but I refuse to repeat Soviet propaganda. Kalashnikov belongs to the same group of Soviet legendary cast of characters as P.Morozov and Stachanov. They were Stalin's inventions. Western media picked that up and ran with it (as usual).

what exactly is that you are disputing? Specific examples? "everything you have posted" is just to broad to argue about.

I share your sentiments on created legends. Propaganda has spoiled just about everything. That does not mean that there were no truth to some of them. For what it worth, it may have inspired some as it was designed to do.

On another note, tyrants come and go, Putin will be gone as some time, but what many people did wasn't for Stalin or Putin. I think that's the stumbling block for a lot of people to reconcile fight for spead of communism vs. the fight for your family and motherland, not that anyone actually understands this concept anymore.
 
Boris, no need to get too emotional and horseshit me or send private messages. I have been to places, including both Kovrov and Izhevsk. Discussion ends here.

I'm not gonna begin to think i know jack squat about the history of guns or the AK 47, but from my very brief search it seems that there is "speculation" that Hugo Schmeisser had "helped" Kalashnikov in its design. It seems that people speculate this due to the similarities in the STG 44 that Hugo designed himself, infact wikipedia said nothing about Hugo having a hand in the design or invention of the AK. Not saying wikipedia is the end all say all in accurate info, but i find Wiki is great for accurate and detailed information.

I read the trigger mechanism in the AK was used from the M1 Garand, does that mean John Garand helped too???
 


no it's not. "Life.ru as quoted by Agerpress, the Romanian national news agency." Find me a real historian, not a ****ing TV personality like that British Ian ******* from the History channel.


People, please stop reading shitty blogs with sensationalist headlines. You'll find the truth from Flintoid who is obsessed with his rivet heads not coming out perfectly enough after 24 hours binge of booze and death metal. There is a difference between faggy writers who write just fill their view count and actual engineers who build shit and don't care what you think about them.
 
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Boris, Stalin quite effectively killed Russian intelligentsia and his "engineering of human souls" created terrible vacuum in the army and also in the industry. You can read about it in books written by Orlando Figes. Stalin's destruction of his own people plus incompetence of his "comrades" was beneficial for Hitler and his staff. When Soviet Union was attacked Stalin switched his "communist propaganda" to "Motherland propaganda", esp. when many people from German occupied territories welcomed Germans as liberators from evil Stalin. Stalin suddenly needed heroes and legends and those were quickly created. Some Stalin's prisoners were allowed to leave labor camps and join the Red Army. But technology was nowhere close where it should be. KGB (I will use this abbreviation just to make it clear) established many successful programs under which foreign technology was "adopted" to Soviet production. Kalashnikov took part in such a program and this is why he was humble about his "invention". He knew just like many other knew. Maybe he did it with a good faith, but he was not the inventor.
After WWII. it was impossible for him (or anybody else) to talk openly about it because "his" product was such a success. Many legends were created back then. Soviet Army "liberating" countries where they raped and pillaged, where they killed Russians who opposed communists. Western world scared by Hitler closed their eyes and legends like Kalashnikov's were distributed to offset what was actually going on. This is why I dispute material you have listed. They are possible fakes, just like everything else produced by KGB.
 
Boris, I will try to find the full list of engineers who went with Schmeisser to USSR, to the benefit of the Forum members. Note that over 30 years passed since I did my search and obviously I did not take my notes with me.
 
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Boris, I will try to find the full list of engineers who went with Schmeisser to USSR, to the benefit of the Forum members. Note that over 30 years passed since I did my search and obviously I did not take my notes with me. After getting my Ph.D., I switched to WMD research and got lucky to have escaped USSR to continue the work first in the Middle East and now, about 25 years, in the USA. Truth be told, I do not share your affection to your (our) motherland, sadly. My father was machinegunned by politruk in the back and survived by a miracle and my late father in law escaped Minsk ghetto in 1943 only to be caught by the Red Army to be sent to Gulag. They robed, raped and murdered other Jews who escaped from the ghetto, you see. Only 50% of my family perished in the Holocaust, the other half was Gulag. Your heated tone, moniker "Son of Kalashnikov" and erratic "RIP Михаил Тимофеевич. Никто не забыт и ни что не забыто" are quite discouraging. I do not wish to continue. Bye now.

I understand your sentiments and I'm pretty sure that my list of grievances with the regimes, Soviet and Nazi is longer than yours. I am sorry about that and many other things that transpired in the last century. The current state of Russian federation is not very hopeful either. But setting emotions aside ...

The list of German engineers and technicians sent to Izhevsk is well known. If you have any information about things that aren't in common knowledge or have specific examples of things that you seen pertaining to Germans used in Soviet rifle development, please do share. That would be really interesting bits of information that could lead to real discoveries backed up by documents and other evidence.


As to my sig line, I am NOT the former Soviet .gov or the present .gov who left their dead soldiers in bomb craters and fields. To me it's not a shallow slogan. I remember my kin, as a matter of fact I carry the name of my uncle who died in '41. I will pass on whatever I know about them and what they did. And also remember the *******s. So yes, no one is forgotten and nothing is forgotten.

In terms of Kalashnikov, I deeply respect him as a man based on what I know, my ability to read between the lines of propaganda and my life experience knowing military in my family. This is subjective to me. What you think of him is your business, but if you have the balls to call him out as a fraud and a liar, then please back it up.
 
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Boris posted:
"In terms of Kalashnikov, I deeply respect him as a man based on what I know, my ability to read between the lines of propaganda and my life experience knowing military in my family. This is subjective to me. What you think of him is your business, but if you have the balls to call him out as a fraud and a liar, then please back it up."

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Well, Boris, here come some balls:

I did not escape Soviet regime so I can listen to Soviet propaganda in the United States. You know a little bit, Boris, but in our times you need to dig deeper. You asked for facts. Allow me to share with you and this forum that as early as 1944 Soviet NKVD and NKGB (predecessors of KGB) organized 40 special purpose groups composed of intelligence officers and technical experts. This was called "Gruppa Molnia" (Lightning Unit). The goal of this operation was to capture German engineers and scientists engaged in development of weapons. They acquired actual weapons, drawings, patents, laboratory equipment and tools. Among other valuables they also obtained Messerschmitt jet fighter technical documentation. One such a group was headed by Sergei Korolev (another Soviet legend just like Kalashnikov). While Korolev was snooping and collecting in Peenemunde where Wernher von Braun was working on rockets all plans, drawings, technicians and designers of future AK-47 were delivered to Soviet GAU (Main Artillery Office). GAU had pretty good information about German Sturmgewehr from 1943 but it was not enough and whatever was available in 1943 did not help Soviets to make a gun which would make a difference in WWII.
Kalashnikov came from a family of Cossacks who were deported by Stalin to Siberia. He was born in 1919 and his life perfectly documents bizarre life of many in the Soviet Hell. He was always afraid that he will be next one in the transport leaving for Stalin's labor camp. As a technical clerk in the train station he signed up with Komsomol (Young Communists Organization). When he had to go in the army he wanted to differentiate himself and came up with small improvements for Tokarev TT-33 pistol so it can shoot from tank and also came up with a counter for tank canon. Kalashnikov was seriously injured in the battle for Brjansk in October 1941. He got involved with GAU when he was released from the hospital.
First "prototype" of AK-47 was based on German STG 44 and it was worked on under NKVD supervision in the secret area in the vicinity of Kovrov in the Soviet Union. You may know that German manufacturer of STG 44 had difficulties with Hitler because their design was not precise and Hitler wanted more sophisticated and more precise weapon. Soviets discovered that their existing manufacturing is unable to produce an exact copy of STG 44. Many teams were asked to adjust what was stolen so it can be produced on existing equipment in Soviet factories. During this time many other similar projects were undertaken under direct supervision of NKVD. One of them was copy of BMW motorcycles which became "the newly invented" Soviet motorcycle Ural. Kalashnikov was in one of those teams and he was trying hard to win Stalin's price of 150 000 rubles (Soviet car Pobeda was 16,000 rubles back then). AK-47 became combination of stolen designs and components from STG 44, M1, SKS (Simonov), Bulkin and Remington 8 (safety). First AK-47 was manufactured 2 years later in 1949. Soviet Army and police received it in 1951. In early 50's Soviet regime decided "to share it" with other communist countries who continued the development and manufacturing. Soviet Army used AK-47 for the first time in 1956 when they were killing with it anti-communist freedom fighters in Hungary.


Boris, "your humble Kalashnikov", received first medal from Stalin and he continued receiving all kind of major honors from 1949 all the way to 2007. He was Hero of the Socialist Work twice, many Red Stars and many rubles. Legend was created and legend lives even today as we can see on this forum

Kalashnikov survived not by fighting or designing weapons for his country. He survived because he became a member of the communist party and worked for NKVD (KGB). You may say that he had no other choice and he was,just like many other citizens of the Soviet Union, without any other options. Well, I admire those who refused to become communists and who did not work for KGB. Those are real heroes. I feel sorry for Kalashnikov and people who admire him because they became victims of Stalin's propaganda.
Good night, Son of Kalashnikov!
 
10SFD, that's a nice write up. I appreciate your effort to write it up. I'm not sure how to break it up into specific points, nor what is the exact purpose of this post. The original post was about Kalashnikov regrets. Let me address some issues first in no particular order.

1. Spying on your enemy and stealing state secrets is a norm. Israel spies on US and we are "best friends". Not to spy and not copy the best technology ... I don't know, I call it dumb and I don't see anything negative here. You make it sounds like it's something dirty.

2. He he, you totally got it about BMW motorcycles, except that Soviets did not steal that during the war, it was taken before the war when Furer and Stalin were best butt buddies, or so it seemed. Also Izhmash's came out with .... Izh bikes and I am pretty positive that many of the German engineers worked on those [wink] but obviously not enough though [laugh]

3.
GAU had pretty good information about German Sturmgewehr from 1943 but it was not enough and whatever was available in 1943
You must speak of MkB42 ... there were plenty of those on the Eastern front, plenty, enough that even UPA had them.

MkB42 != StG44 Ok?

4. I would not call AK47 or StG44 or even MkB42 "invented" rather "developed" Inventing implies something completely new concept, like a ray gun shooting unicorns. Intermediate calibers and smaller assault guns were nothing new. Kalashnikov did not invented it, neither did Hugo.

5.
You may know that German manufacturer of STG 44 had difficulties with Hitler because their design was not precise and Hitler wanted more sophisticated and more precise weapon.
Nein, it wasn't "precision" that was an issue and Hitler was actually right, there were insane stockpiles of your regular 8mm rounds and Poulte produced jack shit, never enough ammo for you magic gun.

6.
Many teams were asked to adjust what was stolen so it can be produced on existing equipment in Soviet factories.
No, actually Soviets had enough of their own crap to produce, look up the story with Zis3 and Gory, when you got factory tooled up for certain production it's not easy to change up. This was an issue with StG manufacturing and improvements to the design.

7. Hugo was member of NSDAP from 1933, so what? His political views have nothing to do with his ability to make great guns. You can admire whomever you want, communists, Nazis, non-Nazis, non-communists.


... and here the main attraction of your post
...whatever was available in 1943 did not help Soviets to make a gun which would make a difference in WWII.

No, it would not make any ****ing difference. StG is not some magic gun that changed everything, it really is NOT. Have any of you even handled StG? The ****er weights a tonne, when it jams there is no way to see wtf is going on inside of that receiver. It sucks, plain as that. It's a sucky, shitty gun.

This is how I feel about your shitty StG and this thread, ****ing engineers

stg1.jpg~original

go shoot your ****ing StG, read some actual ****ing books (not internet blogs of ****ing wiko-peado) about some magic german guns that could have turned the war around [rolleyes]
 
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Boris, Stalin quite effectively killed Russian intelligentsia and his "engineering of human souls" created terrible vacuum in the army and also in the industry. You can read about it in books written by Orlando Figes. Stalin's destruction of his own people plus incompetence of his "comrades" was beneficial for Hitler and his staff. When Soviet Union was attacked Stalin switched his "communist propaganda" to "Motherland propaganda", esp. when many people from German occupied territories welcomed Germans as liberators from evil Stalin. Stalin suddenly needed heroes and legends and those were quickly created. Some Stalin's prisoners were allowed to leave labor camps and join the Red Army. But technology was nowhere close where it should be. KGB (I will use this abbreviation just to make it clear) established many successful programs under which foreign technology was "adopted" to Soviet production. Kalashnikov took part in such a program and this is why he was humble about his "invention". He knew just like many other knew. Maybe he did it with a good faith, but he was not the inventor.
After WWII. it was impossible for him (or anybody else) to talk openly about it because "his" product was such a success. Many legends were created back then. Soviet Army "liberating" countries where they raped and pillaged, where they killed Russians who opposed communists. Western world scared by Hitler closed their eyes and legends like Kalashnikov's were distributed to offset what was actually going on. This is why I dispute material you have listed. They are possible fakes, just like everything else produced by KGB.

created terrible vacuum in the army and also in the industry.

Shit, I didn't read this bit yet, ok how about this shocker, by June22 Soviet army was the biggest in the world and they actually had more and better tanks than Nazis. Is that shocking enough for you??? What was the heavy German tank by June 22nd, 1941? See if you can find it. Soviets made KV-1 when Nazis were still licking their rape wounds after WWI. And then there was the most famous T34 ... which was developed in ... yeah, they were making it by 37. By 37, Nazi were riding bycicles. But that's beyond the point, I'm not disputing what Stalin did and how many perished in purges.

You probably think that Nazi were driving toward Moscow on their Tigers and Panthers, 'cause you saw some shitty holywood movie and now you are a ****ing expert. Yeah, so much for advanced german engineering and lack of heavy tanks in 41. Give me more of your Nazi excuses how magic shit could have turned something around. Crazy Furer is always crazy and all his glorious generals warn him, but somehow he **** everything up. His fault entirely, right or whatever you nazi shits like to say.


You want more shockers? Here you go. Suhl wasn't liberated by Soviets. Americans and British interrogated and had their first pick at Hugo and decided that he was worthless, unlike many other German and Jap engineers. Try to reconcile that with your notion of magic glorious guns.

Can you see it? Can you mother****ing see it? Americans passed on the greatest opportunity ever. If Americans took Hugo Scheismer with them, they would have an atomic bomb and AK, ( but it would sounds more like Lincoln47) With atomic bomb and AKs ... I mean LiN47 Ike could have ruled the world!!!!!!!!!!! but what the hell dumb Americans ... wait, should Soviets be dumb instead? ****, I'm sonfused as shit.

and most of all, I am yet to hear any real evidence of Hugo giving something to comrade Michael. All I hear is "I've been to Kovrov" "I seen some documents" Stalin bad, Hugo genious, wikopeadea quotes, links to tabloids worst than Globe.



Ok, I'm going to trow you a bone, because your arguments sucks so bad that I feel sorry for you that I have to jump in and for a second be my own devils advocate and argue your side. Look up MkB (H) vs MkB (W)

I don't know if you even know the difference or whatever wikopeadea will give you. At least you can do some real ****ing research and learn something to argue with. It will be harder than watching History channel but you will learn something.
 
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Boris, if you would calm down you may actually appreciate that some of the information I shared with you is not from the internet. As it was said on this forum already: Only now we can have an access to documents from Soviet times. Unfortunately not in Russia yet. I used information from former Dresden location. I will end this thread because I said what I wanted to say. I have nothing else on the subject.
 
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