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"JUST FOLLOWING ORDERS"

calsdad

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I'm not sure what you're getting upset about, and I don't see a military coup as somehow a better option to civilian govt. I don't see a large govt presence of any type as a benefit to liberty. Perhaps you do - and if so we just fundamentally disagree.
There seems to be a consistent problem among a big portion of the American people.

Basically: they expect "somebody else" - to solve all their problems for them.

People on the left expect all sorts of free shit - and expect to be able to just elect an omnipotent leader who will just make the world into their socialist paradise.

People on the right - pretty much expect the same thing , except in their world they want their retirement protected, people to be banned from having abortions, and the US military to be spread all over the world to "protect us" - and they want the government to be cut down and taxes to be lowered. But in the end - they're still looking for "somebody else" - to do it all.

When you start talking about the US going full retard into civil war or something like that - a good many libertarians and conservatives think the US military is going to somehow ride to their rescue. Maybe they base that on the whole "enemies foreign and domestic" thing. I don't know.

I remember reading something a few years back - from an Army officer - if I remember correctly he claimed to be a Lt. with combat experience in Iraq and Afghanistan - that laid out the problem pretty nicely.

He basically said that without the AMERICAN PEOPLE doing something to correct the situation - it was not the military's place to go off script and try to fix the problems themselves. If the bulk of the American people agree with the CIVILIAN government - then if the military starts to openly challenge that - the military is WRONG. In this country we still have a military that is commanded by a CIVILIAN.

Now - if we get to a situation where the US government is going full retard on people - and people have started fighting back by doing things like having states secede - and attempting to elect "representatives" to bring the government to heel - and the government is openly and wantonly ignoring that - and suppressing it -and openly and egregiously violating the Constitution and just human rights in general - well that is a different situation.

I can imagine a scenario where the senior leaders in the Federal government have gone so full retard that states secede - and people are in open rebellion against the government - some places more than others ( being in MA would probably put a good many of us behind enemy lines - so to speak) . In that kind of scenario I can see the military being stuck with a real dilemna - because the "civilian leadership" - they are supposed to obey - would still be in place. But things would potentially be such that the civilian leadership - would be considered "a domestic enemy" - by at least some people.

It's these kind of subtleties why I think it's important for 'conservatives' and libertarians - to continue to goad the government into going full retard.

Sun Tzu said that the supreme art of warfare is to defeat the enemy without having to fight them. Alinsky taught methods by which a bureaucracy's rules can be used against them to defeat them.

Our government is a caricature of that which we should have in this country. The latest behavior during the shutdown shows that clearly.

It's up to us - as 'civilians' - to goad and push the government into behaving in a manner that fully morally justifies putting them down like the rabid dog they have become.

Currently - they are actually "behaving" - at least enough to continue putting up with them because the costs of putting them down outweigh the benefits of doing so. Given the trend though - I don't think that state will continue.
 
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Some people fear any semblance of freedom, and the necessity of responsibility, over a warm cozy blanket of false safety so much that pure libertarianism is indistinguishable from anarchy in their eyes. They cannot fathom a world in which they are required to deal with their own problems.

When they have a problem they want someone else to solve it. The mere idea that they would have to get their own hands dirty or take a stance frightens them more than tyranny.
 

calsdad

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I work for the largest law enforcement agency in New England and am a retired Army CWO still bound by law to my oath of office. No one is talking about slamming the police here. You have confused two entirely two different issues, however if you cannot honestly see that there has been a paradigm shift in the attitude of the police before and after 9/11 then you might want to reevaluate your position. This is a separate topic and there are dozens of anarchists posing as Libertarians here on NES, not talking about that. The gist of the topic appears to be that the average normal citizen will fall lockstep behind the government and do what they are told. Be it registering and turning in their guns, informing on their neighbors, or getting a job as a guard at the local internment camp. Look at yourself, you have already wrapped yourself around the cloak of virtue by defending your agency by the laws you enforce as if to imply that maybe you are a little better than the average NES schlep cop basher...(lotsa of them totally clueless BTW as far as understanding procedurals and the law and the system , but they get the growing sense of entitlement right, the overly generous pay and benefits right at least here in the Northeast, the Guild system that passes the Job from father to son, the militarization and tactical equipment, and increasing influence by DHS and DOJ thru grant money to create a de facto national police force) you know what's best right ? Well already you have taken the first step by segregating yourself from the masses, but again this isn't what this is about. People get all uppity and yell Godwin, Godwin but Germany in the 1930s and 40s remains the classic case study. Here was a western industrialized state, home of some of the greatest composers, philosophers, poets, artists and scientists that ever lived. Yet became a bastion of pure evil. The people, not the Army, not the not the police, the people went right along with it for the most part. They were seduced and when they found out they were screwed, it was too late. North Korea, Cuba, Uzbekistan some shithole countries in Africa with wretched governments manage to stay in power? How? People are sheep and will more willingly take security over freedom any day and if ratting on your neighbor for having an illegal radio will get you an extra rice ration, so be it. So take umbrage, but you don't know what you will do until the time comes and what choices you might have to make. "Fire into that crowd or your family will be executed" might make all the oaths in the world pale in comparison to your emotions...or not. [wink] Stay safe and continue to try to do your best which is all anybody can do, but I honestly believe that we all have limits and none of us can say with 100 percent certainty what we would do in any given situation. [cheers]

Re-read 1984. In the end even Winston learned to love Big Brother. [rolleyes]
Good reference on the Godwin thing.

What people seem to forget about the National Socialist Party - is that firstly Hitler was basically elected. As were the Nazis in all of the existing representative positions they held in the German govt. And secondly - most of the "organs of the state" that the Nazi party used to enforce it's vision of the world - ALREADY EXISTED , when they took over . Any "new" organizations that may have been formed by the Nazi's - like the SS and Gestapo - were merely further evolutions of organizations that were fully accepted by the German people as legitimate.

In other words - Nazism in Germany was basically an evolution of the already existing form of things - not an outright revolution as some seem to think. Socialization in German society had been happening for decades. Germans accepted it. We're not talking about a decentralized liberatarian society here that just got overthrown by a bunch of thugs.

This is why what's going on in this country over the last 100 years is so ominous. It's been happening for so long that people just accept it. Any "republic" with small government that may have existed in the past - is such a distant memory that most people can't even conceive of it. The stuff that's been going on since 9/11 is just a quickening of the existing trend. And look how many people - especially people on the right - just willingly accept it.

This is why I say - It's YOUR fault to so many people. You can see the excuses right here on NES - maybe not so much now that Obama has been giving everybody an un-lubed rectal exam - but I bet if we get a Republican the next time around on the presidental cycle- the excuse factory will be in full production again.

- - - Updated - - -

I think that one of the biggest mistakes being made by the .gov during this whole shutdown thing is not making provisions to make sure that the military is still well taken care of through this debacle.

Those in the military will not soon forget that the Pentagon left families hanging so that the media could use it to make headlines and push an agenda
Depending on your viewpoint - it's not a mistake. It's a good thing.
 

calsdad

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Fighting will always cost you. Fighting with words, through politics and such, is exhausting. You keep talking, making clear arguments with undeniable facts, and the other side will just turn around and do as if you're crazy or something. It takes a lot of restraint not to beat some sense into "their" heads, at least it does for me. To be perfectly honest with you guys, I'd much rather let black hills and federal do the talking by now.
" You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Frenchman again"

Absolutely true. I've been making these arguments for years -and I'm at the point where I'm starting to think:

"**** it - when the time comes I'll just join up with whatever Einsatzgruppen is in charge of sending people off to the camps and I'll enjoy the work - seeing these dumb bastards have happen to them that which they insisted would never come"

- - - Updated - - -

It is a problem but one that is deeply routed. Ill use myself for example, I was taught at a young age to respect authority no matter what, schools more than anything tell you this. It wasnt until i started getting influenced by you bunch of savages [laugh][wink] with your radical theories on liberty that i even began to question some of the things i had believed in.
Excellent. At least one person admits that it's working.

Now you've got to infect other people.
 

Scarecrow

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Anarchists posing as Libertarians? What?
Anarchy and Libertarian are pretty similar; one wants no government, the other wants minimal government.

I want to be left the hell alone, and allowed the opportunity to deal with my own problems without worrying that someone will be offended and result in my arrest and/or untimely demise.
 
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Anarchy and Libertarian are pretty similar; one wants no government, the other wants minimal government.

I want to be left the hell alone.
This, the sad thing is, to the left and even to those on the right, they view both as the same and they equate that with the radical view of Anarchism such as the Anarchist cookbook, etc
 

calsdad

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Some people fear any semblance of freedom, and the necessity of responsibility, over a warm cozy blanket of false safety so much that pure libertarianism is indistinguishable from anarchy in their eyes. They cannot fathom a world in which they are required to deal with their own problems.

When they have a problem they want someone else to solve it. The mere idea that they would have to get their own hands dirty or take a stance frightens them more than tyranny.
I've told people like that - right to their face - that they're useless and expendable.

Basically I confront them with the fact that - if they can't even solve their own problems - then in the end - they are nothing but a burden - and IF things REALLY get bad - they will be expendable.

Sometimes it appears they actually think about it - other times they just get pissed off. Usually they just come out and say stupid shit like: " the government will take care of me". Then I tell them that sooner or later - later or sooner - the government will run out of resources too. And if they're a liberal - I ask them why is it they feel it's ok to make themselves into a Katrina survivor sitting around at the Superdome.

Sometimes people need to be reminded what government help really looks like.
 

Scarecrow

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This, the sad thing is, to the left and even to those on the right, they view both as the same and they equate that with the radical view of Anarchism such as the Anarchist cookbook, etc
Anarchists cookbook is a tool, nothing more. The issue is with people associating with labels so readily. I could argue most political ideologies and get people to agree with at least some of the philosophies; the only one that is "correct" in America is the one that says "do what you want to yourself, so long as it does not hamper or impede other people in their pursuits" If you want to go in your basement, drop 10 shots of acid and then spend the next 48 hours taking shots at the giant crabmen climbing out of the walls, go for it! So long as your actions do not endanger the people living around you, no one should be able to say you cannot do that...but, you also have to accept that you are not owed a damned thing, so your medical expenses, your financial issues, and your life are your own responsibility. Government is there to organize the defense of our borders, and be the voice of the people in international affairs; not a scratch more. Speed limits, highway maintenance, snow plowing, etc. etc. all falls on the state and local legislation to figure out. Anything short of this is a violation of the trust this country was founded on and the liberties guaranteed by right of birth to all Americans.

/rant
 
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There seems to be a consistent problem among a big portion of the American people.

Basically: they expect "somebody else" - to solve all their problems for them.

People on the left expect all sorts of free shit - and expect to be able to just elect an omnipotent leader who will just make the world into their socialist paradise.

People on the right - pretty much expect the same thing , except in their world they want their retirement protected, people to be banned from having abortions, and the US military to be spread all over the world to "protect us" - and they want the government to be cut down and taxes to be lowered. But in the end - they're still looking for "somebody else" - to do it all.

When you start talking about the US going full retard into civil war or something like that - a good many libertarians and conservatives think the US military is going to somehow ride to their rescue. Maybe they base that on the whole "enemies foreign and domestic" thing. I don't know.
I agree with almost everything said except for abortion - I'm in favor of it being illegal for the same reasons other homicides are.

That being said, I don't understand the cognitive dissonance many conservatives have. I'm less concerned with the cognitive dissonance of liberals, because I don't feel the same general affinity for them and they're moonbats anyway.

Somehow in the mind of way too many conservatives EPA bureacrats can be seduced by govt power, IRS agents can be seduced by govt power, HHS bureacrats can be seduced by govt power, politicians can be seduced by govt power, teachers unions can be seduced by govt power, welfare recipients can be seduced by govt power, presidents can be seduced by govt power, but police and military CANNOT be seduced by govt power. Can anyone explain this to me? The same goes for cutting any type of spending.

Sure there are decent cops and soldiers, but there are decent people in all walks of life and even some who work for .gov. I don't think anyone denies that there are good people on earth. That doesn't change the fact that we are still human beings, and human beings tend towards laziness and the path of least resistance -- evil. Humans have to TRY to be good, they don't have to try to be evil. So why is it that conservatives have this mental wall up that anyone with a uniform on is nothing but pure good, will never turn against them, and are somehow just as "in the fight" against big govt as civilians?

I've posted it elsewhere, but this quote seems appropriate: " The numbers of men in all ages have preferred ease, slumber, and good cheer to liberty, when they have been in competition. We must not then depend alone upon the love of liberty in the soul of man for its preservation." ~ John Adams
 
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Rob Boudrie

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Most recent example is the thugs in NYC wrt the SUV. One of them would never do it but their courage gets a super-boost from the size of the crowd they are part of
It's not just the "courage of the mob", but people tend to abdicate personal responsibility instead deferring to the "judgement" of the mob.
 
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Anarchy and Libertarian are pretty similar; one wants no government, the other wants minimal government.
Similar in effect, but they are very different in mindset.

Why? Because anarchists refuse to believe any government is necessary at all. Libertarians believe and admit government is necessary, but simply want it as limited as possible. Admitting that a government is necessary is a HUGE difference, one I think is far understated when casual comparisons of libertarianism and anarchism are compared as being a lot alike.

I consider myself a classical liberal. To me, that's being a libertarian tempered with deference to original Constitutional meaning and so-called "First Principles" when those two come into conflict with libertarian norms.
 
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