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Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by copterdoctor, Oct 9, 2013.
the minute anybody starts following unconstitutional orders: engage at will.
and these guys wont hear the crack the second they step out of their car when they think they are walking into their "safe zone"
I understand your point, but things are going to have to be cut one way or another. Every facet of govt needs to be pared, and that includes ones that my fellow conservatives don't want to touch. If you think a large number of people who are getting govt checks are going to disobey their orders when told to confiscate weapons, round people up etc, I just disagree. This includes military. I'm not saying they're bad people -- some people will refuse orders. But it's not a safe bet to assume just because you like a particular part of the govt, they'll like you back when push comes to shove.
That is not a blanket statement, if its a 12:1, what good does it do, except to be a stat. Look, if it is narrowing down to this, you have better be more prepared than, "Their coming to my house and I'll die trying". Way before anything of them going to " your" house, you have better have had a serious understanding of who is with you and who is not. By the time you have them coming to your house, they will have visited many others, perhaps and more than likely, at once. Either there are fields of fire or you go quietly breathing or not.
If it has gotten to the point of door to door and following unconstitutional orders, the shooting and dieing will have started long before they get to your house, unless your the unfortunate bastard that gets to start the next civil war.
yes but these guys better remember they go home alone at night.
Sometimes they carpool.
Big hatred between civ gov't and mil, when the money's gone, the money's gone, then the loyalty really speaks. If the .gov can't pay the .mil, then guess what, there ain't no loyalty. Just look at the recent examples of military pay cuts, and refusal to pay for military death insurance, 4 Army and 1 Marine this past weekend are being refused burial and life insurance benefits. Keep the good work up, I'm sure we'll be there to back the civilian government.
What the **** dude, stop stereotyping when unless you've worn the boots, hit the ground, been shot at and damn near blown up and had friends die for this bullshit governments decisions, there's some very unhappies and lots of them. So if our country does fall, the current *******s aren't getting much support.
I'm not sure what you're getting upset about, and I don't see a military coup as somehow a better option to civilian govt. I don't see a large govt presence of any type as a benefit to liberty. Perhaps you do - and if so we just fundamentally disagree.
the one's that carpool are probably too pussified to confiscate guns, they might check your recyclables bin for compliance though.
sometimes I even feel like a nut; sometimes I don't.
Not upset, words don't make me upset, actions do. Never mentioned a military coup, those are your words. What I wrote was a dissatisfaction that has spread through officers and NCO's, not a good morale situation if called upon to perform "mob mentality" directives.
Upset, your funny!
Be a little more elaborate in your answers. What kind of nut? Left wing nut, right wing nut, gun nut, walnut? You're a jackass. I mean, who orders a burger medium well( medium rare rules), and confuses people, worse, his fellow board members with terms like "go-athkeepers"? You are here because you are an agent of the NSA, or NASA, or whatever. And you're here to distract us from listening to Michaeljr, so we will miss it when he calls go time. I got you all figured out, ocifer.
Yes. I am a mole.
Eta: you're not ready for my next gen humor. I'm sorry.
This isn't really a "just following orders" case. That's usually the excuse given with an order they know to be unlawful, but that they do have some reservation of some kind.
Here, the government agents seem to be fully behind and a proud to engage in the conduct at hand.
I can say the same thing to everyone who takes every opportunity to slam LEO's. *nudge nudge*
An underlying point of discussion is what type of people will work for what types of agencies. NPS are generally treehuggers, a lot of them are liberal/progressive to boot. Generally, you have to stand for something to stand for something. I joined my particular agency because of what it does, not for the paycheck since it was a pay cut and living conditions generally suck. My job description is taken almost directly from the wording of the founding documents. Aticle I Section 8, To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
Also, to throw the LEO community under the bus would have to expect the vast majority of the population to suddenly grow a spine and stand for something in contrast. I go back to my argument as to the percentage of LEO's are ex-military and the oaths they took vs the standing military everyone here seems to hold to such a high Constitutional standard. LEO's are a very high percentage of former military, probably higher percentage wise than the general population as a whole. This is an anecdotal observation, but I've been around 40 plus years myself and have lived all over the country.
I would not do what they are asking, I'm sure someone would suddenly be lost and need my assistance in finding them. Public safety being first and foremost and all.
I work for the largest law enforcement agency in New England and am a retired Army CWO still bound by law to my oath of office. No one is talking about slamming the police here. You have confused two entirely two different issues, however if you cannot honestly see that there has been a paradigm shift in the attitude of the police before and after 9/11 then you might want to reevaluate your position. This is a separate topic and there are dozens of anarchists posing as Libertarians here on NES, not talking about that. The gist of the topic appears to be that the average normal citizen will fall lockstep behind the government and do what they are told. Be it registering and turning in their guns, informing on their neighbors, or getting a job as a guard at the local internment camp. Look at yourself, you have already wrapped yourself around the cloak of virtue by defending your agency by the laws you enforce as if to imply that maybe you are a little better than the average NES schlep cop basher...(lotsa of them totally clueless BTW as far as understanding procedurals and the law and the system , but they get the growing sense of entitlement right, the overly generous pay and benefits right at least here in the Northeast, the Guild system that passes the Job from father to son, the militarization and tactical equipment, and increasing influence by DHS and DOJ thru grant money to create a de facto national police force) you know what's best right ? Well already you have taken the first step by segregating yourself from the masses, but again this isn't what this is about. People get all uppity and yell Godwin, Godwin but Germany in the 1930s and 40s remains the classic case study. Here was a western industrialized state, home of some of the greatest composers, philosophers, poets, artists and scientists that ever lived. Yet became a bastion of pure evil. The people, not the Army, not the not the police, the people went right along with it for the most part. They were seduced and when they found out they were screwed, it was too late. North Korea, Cuba, Uzbekistan some shithole countries in Africa with wretched governments manage to stay in power? How? People are sheep and will more willingly take security over freedom any day and if ratting on your neighbor for having an illegal radio will get you an extra rice ration, so be it. So take umbrage, but you don't know what you will do until the time comes and what choices you might have to make. "Fire into that crowd or your family will be executed" might make all the oaths in the world pale in comparison to your emotions...or not. Stay safe and continue to try to do your best which is all anybody can do, but I honestly believe that we all have limits and none of us can say with 100 percent certainty what we would do in any given situation.
Re-read 1984. In the end even Winston learned to love Big Brother.
I think that one of the biggest mistakes being made by the .gov during this whole shutdown thing is not making provisions to make sure that the military is still well taken care of through this debacle.
Those in the military will not soon forget that the Pentagon left families hanging so that the media could use it to make headlines and push an agenda
+1 As a former citizen of a communist country, I endorse the insight above.
One of the first things you learned was to trust nobody by default, and as few people as possible, even if they've proven themselves to be trustworthy. Even strong people can be broken with enough "enhanced interrogation", including threats to their close family members, etc.
Need to know, opsec and all that.
EDIT: On the Big Brother thing - there will always be a large number of people who do not drink the koolaid but merely go through the motions to avoid getting in trouble. Problem is, you never know how many of them and who they are
Those of us not getting into an online pissing match about who will or won't do what when the curtain goes up know that not everyone will do the ballsy thing when the time comes. We only hope enough will. And rather than crapping on them, we salute those who are sure they won't do evil. Time will tell, but I'd rather say thanks in advance then treat them as liars before they are even tested.
The Yellowstone tourists' story should be shocking to everyone. Openly armed gov officials, for no lawful reason, took ordinary, non-activist, non-political, ordinary folks, and under threat of violence herded them on a nonstop trip to a gov-selected destination, ensuring those along their route would not succor them in any way. Mostly benign in outcome this time, thankfully. Like a test run for totalitarianism.
Sadly, some of my military guys will blindly follow orders... the rest of them would take the shot themselves, if they had half a chance. People up in the E8 and O5 spots in my area have quietly voiced their thoughts on this, and RI, at least, will not just roll over quietly. If they want to confiscate weapons, they'll have to find some other lackey to do it.
I thought you were more of a meerkat, or maybe a groundhog? If you see your shadow, 3 more weeks of FR ammo pricing?
Edit: Not belittling, just trying to toss some kind of humor in a dreary subject.
You look at your neighbors, your comrades: Let's either resist or protest! But all your comrades, all your fellow Article 58's, who have been plundered one by one even before you go there, sit there submissively, hunched over, and they stare right past you, and it's even worse when they look at you the way they always do look at you, as though no violence were going on at all, no plundering, as though it were a natural phenomenon, as though it were the grass growing and the rain falling.
And the reason why, gentlemen, comrades, and brothers, is that the proper time was allowed to slip by!
Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago
The government will start it. The same way the "government" started it the first time around.
Yea - probably true, but I think I know why.
I've had a number of "angry and indignant" people tell me that if and when things go to shit - they'll likely be the last ones to lead the charge - the way they look at it is that they've been putting their neck out there for a long time trying to get people to listen - on the premise that they felt if enough people changed their minds and paid attention - the shit could be deflected from hitting the fan in the first place.
So when it gets to the time when SHTF time is here - they figure "screw it - I've already paid my price - it's time for somebody else to pony up for a change" - and they just bow out.
Fighting will always cost you. Fighting with words, through politics and such, is exhausting. You keep talking, making clear arguments with undeniable facts, and the other side will just turn around and do as if you're crazy or something. It takes a lot of restraint not to beat some sense into "their" heads, at least it does for me. To be perfectly honest with you guys, I'd much rather let black hills and federal do the talking by now.
If I've figured it out correctly - this makes me happy.
If the military is pissed off at the "civilan leadership" - that's probably a good thing.
Unless they decide to take things into their own hands and institute some sort of military dictatorship or something like that. Given the current level of communism and douchiness coming from our "elected leaders" - I'm more than happy with knowing that they're pissing off the military.
Now if "conservatives" would pull their head out of their ass and realize that having that pissed off military distributed all around the world does absolutely nothing to help us - we might have a beginnings of a real happenin' party.
Lol, what's next? Ask Haliburton to make less money. The troops overseas generate a humongous revenue to very few companies with a lobby that that makes the word "extreme" look like nothing.
Its not good for the troops, it's not good for the families, and it's not good for the country. But it's VERY good for a chosen few with a lot of influence.
It is a problem but one that is deeply routed. Ill use myself for example, I was taught at a young age to respect authority no matter what, schools more than anything tell you this. It wasnt until i started getting influenced by you bunch of savages with your radical theories on liberty that i even began to question some of the things i had believed in.
Now, if only we could get 200 million more people to read here with the same open mind, we'd be all set.
and I agree on the savages part. People here with their weird attitude of wanting to live as free men, that's no good company for a civilized man.
Yep, afterall the .gov is here to keep us safe, why do we have to do it
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