"JUST FOLLOWING ORDERS"

frenchman

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yeah, so much for the cops refusing to following illegal / unconstitutional / immoral orders.
Whoever believed they would do the right thing and risk their jobs was a fool in the first place. Even those that are vocal here WILL follow orders when the day comes. They may be nice guys, and even believe that they won't, but in the end, they WILL knock on your door and try to collect. They will have a bazillion excuses for themselves. Human nature. And the lion share of the "molon labe" crowd WILL comply. Also human nature.
 
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new guy

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"Just following orders" vs. "Just defending the constitution" - which has the moral high ground? How about the legal high ground?
 

mark056

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I'm sure Heinrich Himmler was only following orders. I'm sure Joseph Goebbels was only following orders too.
No those guys were issuing orders, but they had a "higher vision" and a nobler calling with a higher purpose and were above the average man, or at least so they thought. They actually believed they were superior. Don't confuse people like them with the rank and file. They were elitists and there are plenty of elitists down in DC, up on Beacon Hill and in lots of other places who are quite willing to place themselves in positions where they are quite willing to issue orders...and plenty of people who are quite willing to follow orders. Please read Frenchman's post very carefully, he is spot on, and truthfully nobody knows what they will do until faced with a life defining moment...you may think you do, but you may be surprised and surprised by those around you.
 
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When something is so blatantly wrong I can't except "just following orders" as a reasonable response. I equate that to a kid telling his parents "but everyone else is doing it"

Its a childish response If somebody ever said that to me I would reply with "what if you were ordered to jump off a bridge would you do that too?"
 
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When something is so blatantly wrong I can't except "just following orders" as a reasonable response. I equate that to a kid telling his parents "but everyone else is doing it"

Its a childish response If somebody ever said that to me I would reply with "what if you were ordered to jump off a bridge would you do that too?"
It's a shitty excuse, but the reality is 99% of people would think, "I know I shouldn't do this but I need to pay my bills and put food on the table for my family".

It's all about money and self preservation. A persons instincts are to preserve themselves and their families first. They don't care about the guy who owns the place or the people that work there.

I'm not saying that just following orders is ok, it's not. This country was founded by people not following orders. Even during the revolution there were loyalists.
 
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Actually, I think it was made famous as the "Goering Defense" after the Herman Goering, Reichsmarschall and head of the Luftwaffe, as he was the only major one of the gang who went to trail.
 

Scarecrow

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Actually, I think it was made famous as the "Goering Defense" after the Herman Goering, Reichsmarschall and head of the Luftwaffe, as he was the only major one of the gang who went to trail.
That's because we killed the rest of them. We shouldn't have stopped.
 

calsdad

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SOME people will not follow orders. But Frenchman is probably right - most will. But following orders is a mindset thing and a morality thing - which is something that can be changed, by the person in question - if they so choose. The people that give the orders are NEVER going to change their minds, they're always going to expect you to just go along.

That's why if you do - it's all on your shoulders whatever happens next. Morally - and legally - if you just follow the orders of a douche - then it's your own goddam fault. You had the chance to change your mind before hand and indoctrinate yourself against that kind of thing happening - and you had the chance to refuse the orders on the moment you were given them.

This is why so many people ended up in the docket at the Nuremberg trials and still got their heads hanging from a rope no matter how many times they said: " I was just following orders".
 

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Whoever believed they would do the right thing and risk their jobs was a fool in the first place. Even those that are vocal here WILL follow orders when the day comes. They may be nice guys, and even believe that they won't, but in the end, they WILL knock on your door and try to collect. They will have a bazillion excuses for themselves. Human nature. And the lion share of the "molon labe" crowd WILL comply. Also human nature.
There you have it.
 
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Whoever believed they would do the right thing and risk their jobs was a fool in the first place. Even those that are vocal here WILL follow orders when the day comes. They may be nice guys, and even believe that they won't, but in the end, they WILL knock on your door and try to collect. They will have a bazillion excuses for themselves. Human nature. And the lion share of the "molon labe" crowd WILL comply. Also human nature.
Which is why incrementalism is so successful. Pick us off, one at a time, just below the outrage meter. Unless a perfect storm erupts, and the train gets too much speed and wakes too many people up at once, everyone will follow orders, comply and give up their guns. To save their lives or the lives of their loved ones. There arent enough loners out there to fight and win another revolution.
 

mark056

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Those men took orders from another person... and followed them and did horrible things. That was my point.
yes and no, they were responsible for the promulgation of many of the policies of the Third Reich period and took their inspiration from Hitler. You need to brush up a bit on your history, I think. I get your point but you could use better examples. Adolph Eichmann comes to mind.

Some people get all upset and yell Godwin, but the simple fact is that we can learn a lot from that time period.
 

Roland Deschain

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Whoever believed they would do the right thing and risk their jobs was a fool in the first place. Even those that are vocal here WILL follow orders when the day comes. They may be nice guys, and even believe that they won't, but in the end, they WILL knock on your door and try to collect. They will have a bazillion excuses for themselves. Human nature. And the lion share of the "molon labe" crowd WILL comply. Also human nature.
This is exactly why my idea's time has come. We need some way to firm up our commitment to go time. I put a lot of thought into this, 5 minutes to be exact, and here's what I propose:

Go-athkeepers. We will pledge to totally go when its go time. For a small yearly fee, I will send you a patch and totally vouch for you online. When its time to assault a ranger battalion (park rangers that is), I will lead the way with a sweet ass blog post.
 

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No those guys were issuing orders, but they had a "higher vision" and a nobler calling with a higher purpose and were above the average man, or at least so they thought. They actually believed they were superior. Don't confuse people like them with the rank and file. They were elitists and there are plenty of elitists down in DC, up on Beacon Hill and in lots of other places who are quite willing to place themselves in positions where they are quite willing to issue orders...and plenty of people who are quite willing to follow orders. Please read Frenchman's post very carefully, he is spot on, and truthfully nobody knows what they will do until faced with a life defining moment...you may think you do, but you may be surprised and surprised by those around you.
Spot on!


When something is so blatantly wrong I can't except "just following orders" as a reasonable response. I equate that to a kid telling his parents "but everyone else is doing it"

Its a childish response If somebody ever said that to me I would reply with "what if you were ordered to jump off a bridge would you do that too?"
No it has to do with "mob mentality". They never send merely ONE officer/person in to do those dirty jobs, they go in as a group. People will do things as a group that they would NEVER even consider doing as an individual.

Most recent example is the thugs in NYC wrt the SUV. One of them would never do it but their courage gets a super-boost from the size of the crowd they are part of.

I saw it (both sides) back during my college days with the "student strike", anti-war protests, etc. As a member of the press, I had the "privilege" of observing this up close and personal but not being a part of it.

It is the reason that they send SWAT/ERT/etc. in for the smallest incident, as it keeps the "rogue cop" from using "officer discretion" to defuse a situation.
 

Evadd

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What's most ironic about this is that the gov't shutdown made it so there aren't enough rangers to patrol the park. Yet somehow, they managed to find the manpower to place them at the doors of his restaurant as a big FU to the owner and his 90 employees. Do your real damn job and get back out there.
 

Scarecrow

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What's most ironic about this is that the gov't shutdown made it so there aren't enough rangers to patrol the park. Yet somehow, they managed to find the manpower to place them at the doors of his restaurant as a big FU to the owner and his 90 employees. Do your real damn job and get back out there.
+1
 

calsdad

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There you have it.
Not for nothing - but we could go back a few years thru the pages of NES, and find a whole bunch of people defending the government ownership of the roads, and national parks, and the welfare system - etc.

One of the things that should be becoming obvious to people because of the shutdown - but most likely isn't - is that PRIVATE enterprises are more responsive to what people really need - than the govt. is and ever can be.

The guy who owns this inn and all of his 90 employees - are all pissed off because they are being PREVENTED from serving people and earning their money. The park rangers on the other hand - probably don't give two shits because they're getting paid anyway and the reality is that sitting around in a car all day blocking roads is easier than actually monitoring the park.

I hope there's a few NES'ers - who thought that government ownership of "national parks" was so great - sitting outside Yellowstone right now with the sinking feeling that the once in a lifetime trip that they just took and spent thousands of dollars on - is now shot to shit because the government doesn't REALLY give a rat's ass about you.

Maybe it will be a wakeup call - but I doubt it. In either case - they deserve it.
 

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It's a shitty excuse, but the reality is 99% of people would think, "I know I shouldn't do this but I need to pay my bills and put food on the table for my family".

It's all about money and self preservation. A persons instincts are to preserve themselves and their families first. They don't care about the guy who owns the place or the people that work there.

I'm not saying that just following orders is ok, it's not. This country was founded by people not following orders. Even during the revolution there were loyalists.
This is why a standing army is so dangerous.

Soldiers have no attachment to community, no job in the community, no roots in the community. Their only source of food for their table, their only place to lay their head at night is the military. This is why the vast majority of them will "follow orders".

Reservists on the other hand may have a different reaction to unconstitutional orders.
 
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When something is so blatantly wrong I can't except "just following orders" as a reasonable response. I equate that to a kid telling his parents "but everyone else is doing it"

Its a childish response If somebody ever said that to me I would reply with "what if you were ordered to jump off a bridge would you do that too?"
Someone please give this order soon so we can find out.
 
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Which is why incrementalism is so successful. Pick us off, one at a time, just below the outrage meter. Unless a perfect storm erupts, and the train gets too much speed and wakes too many people up at once, everyone will follow orders, comply and give up their guns. To save their lives or the lives of their loved ones. There arent enough loners out there to fight and win another revolution.
You maybe right, but I think we may have enough to start one, and once it starts, only God will see where it ends.
 
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