Judge shuts down North Attleboro Gun Club Until Improvements Made

If the club goes down I’m buying it, splitting off the prime lots that are available and making it the NES members only range.
No stress!

Seriously, on another note. As a former member the club when I was a member had a lot of cash in the bank to fight if needed.
Very glad to hear this, kudos to the club for pre-planning allocating a "legal fees" fund.
 
agree, but it sounds like you are suggesting that someone thought it was likely.
For all I know, the court thinks it's a dandy pretext to screw with the club.

Remember to use a tall step ladder, to get the correct ballistic angle , when using your wrist rocket.
Pro-tip: We normally label posts like that a "pro-tip".
⬆️ That's a meta-pro-tip.
 
I'm willing to bet most didn't know about the club. In my experience,
Tried to get that done when they built a development near our club in NH. The town and the real estate agency were not forced to make any notification in the paperwork issued at the closings. Although I find it unbelievable that any potential buyer wouldn't see the club a half mile away on the main road.

Oddly enough the only complaints we ever got was from new homes a mile away in a different town. Complaints to the PD went nowhere.
 
I don't see it happening from the short range firing line.


But the club rules there say there is a position at the rifle range for prone, kneeling, and sitting, and 45 ACP carbines exist. How tall is the berm on the rifle range?
The berm on our three hundred yard range in about twenty feet tall. Yet members or guests manage to miss it as we can see tree behind it scared by bullets. Same for our fifty hard range. Hopefully they get caught by the trees but a shot could leave the range. We had a few go into a neighbor next door. We didn't doubt they came from our range but the neighbor was good about it and we took corrective action.
 
If the problem is either homeowners faking evidence of rounds leaving the range
or idiots in the woods conducting target practice with no backstop, (<= see "Long Island Expressway(?) Sniper")
it would be a shame if someone was to discover a handful of .45ACP brass,
and tin cans with holes in them in woods off the property,
line of sight from the house in question.


The court has absolutely no incentive whatsoever
to disprove the complaint that the bullet came from the club.

It just assumes it is true and screws the club.

Why would the court lift a cuticle to order some intricate investigation
that the police have absolutely no interest in performing?


Well, if it's hitting windows; sure. (<= See "frustrated homeowner")


Stand right in front of a window screen and lob a .45ACP round using a Wrist Rocket.

zocIP.gif


Nothing says "re-elect me to club management"
like asking the police to raid the houses of
everyone who was on the property one day
in search of stray handguns.

If the club requires visitors to log in,
even if they are members' guests,
that includes the houses of near-strangers.


Not to mention having the guns' ballistics filed (in NCIC?) on the off chance
that they are involved in a crime in the future.

And if they do find that the boolit came from some member at the range,
it just proves that wild shots from the range can hit houses,
and guarantees they will have to provide 100% mitigation -
not just reasonable accommodations.


It's not a criminal case because the police DGAF.

Some police may even know enough ballistics to suspect the evidence is faked,
but lack the incentive to tell the judge to curb his enthusiasm.


5m2jki.jpg



Exactly what happened years back in Epping when a hunter used a FMJ to finish a deer he shot. the bullet went through the deer and into a home entering the interior. The hunter came forward when it became known to them. Apparently it's a Fish and Game violation to use FMJ.
Same in Pelham recently...


Hunter Shoots Bullet Through House, Just Misses Resident​

Michael Crooker of Pelham, NH knocked on family's door to apologize​


Crooker was placed under arrest, and is charged with felony reckless conduct, prohibition, unlawful use of a firearm, negligent discharge of firearms, and a violation of attempting to take a deer with a firearm after the end of deer firearm season.....again probably coming forward worked in his favor admitting his mistake.
 
When Messina was building condos around the periphery of Braintree R&P, the club president told us that he requested that all the deeds/documents note that there was an active range there. The club president is the same attorney defending Angletree currently. A few years after the condos were built, the club received a letter requesting that we prohibit shooting on Sunday afternoons, when they are showing property. Reality is that at a closing you are handed a stack of papers and told "sign here, here, and there". Nobody reads all that paper!
 
Very glad to hear this, kudos to the club for pre-planning allocating a "legal fees" fund. As a former member the club when I was a member had a lot of cash in the bank to fight if needed.
My club had a legal fund set up just in case. We had an issue with wetland designations which wasn't that involved and we ate up almost a hundred thousand very quickly. Hire some experts and the money flows out.
 
Unless you're shooting sideways form the rifle range you're not going anywhere near that neighborhood.
If we confine ourselves to deliberate, well-aimed shots, it's a foregone conclusion. It makes sense, rather, to think mainly about an ND of some sort. Maybe a hang fire: twists the gun to look at it..."What's wrong with this thing?"...BANG. From the right edge of the rifle firing line to the left edge of the rifle berm is a straight line leading to the left of the neighborhood. Straight down the right edge is a straight line leading to the right of the neighborhood. You might not be able to do it from the left-most rifle positions, but at some stations, at least, the angle is there.

I'm not saying that it happened, but I believe I was called an "asshat" recently merely for considering it possible.
 
When Messina was building condos around the periphery of Braintree R&P, the club president told us that he requested that all the deeds/documents note that there was an active range there. The club president is the same attorney defending Angletree currently. A few years after the condos were built, the club received a letter requesting that we prohibit shooting on Sunday afternoons, when they are showing property. Reality is that at a closing you are handed a stack of papers and told "sign here, here, and there". Nobody reads all that paper!
Clubs that comply with such requests must be VERY careful to document that they are doing it as a courtesy, not as settlement of any dispute or agreement to so limit hours in the future, or to place any constraints upon operational changes consistent with state and federal law.

If there is a dispute with the club in the future, you can count on the other side claiming there is already an "agreement" limiting hours that is the point from which negotiations begin. When my club got a letter asking about hours, more words were spent in the response qualifying that we retained the right to change hours in any legal way possible, that our statement of current shooting hours was not to be construed as a contract, promise or representation, implied or otherwise that they could not be changed or expanded at any time of choosing than actually stating the hours.
 
Last edited:
Obviously EVERY bit of personal information about everyone can be found in some record or other. But posting someone's personal info, solely because they complained about a gun club is the definition of doxxing. The fact that it was posted on a shooting site could be seen as intimidation. That's not what this site should strive for. This site takes steps to insure you can't identify places that restrict carry, or who ships ammo to MA, this is public info too. It's fun to see how many on here do not see this.

doxxing is posting personal info to encourage attacks on the person. That wasn’t the case here, it was posted to show the person didn’t buy the house recently. There’s nothing to the post here, a non issue.
 
Ah, ok then, shut the range down. It's not safe. Got it. The homeowner says it happened so it must be true, it must have come from the range.


It's no wonder we get decisions like these when people who allegedly know about guns don't have a clue about what actually happened and have their BS anecdotes/analyses about how it could have happened.

In fact, shut it down permanently since some dickhead guns guys will find a reason why even if there's every conceivable safety measure in place, that they could make the shot. Tell us, what can the club do that it's not already doing to prevent this?
If you have a neighborhood in range and all it takes is some ass hat to ND over the berm than either you need taller berms or some structure that 100% restricts rounds from leaving the property since judicious marksmanship isn't gonna cut it.
 
I don't see it happening from the short range firing line.


But the club rules there say there is a position at the rifle range for prone, kneeling, and sitting, and 45 ACP carbines exist. How tall is the berm on the rifle range?
s&w's range in springfield had holes in the floor and ceiling less than 10' from the benches. Never underestimate stupidity.
 
My club had a legal fund set up just in case. We had an issue with wetland designations which wasn't that involved and we ate up almost a hundred thousand very quickly. Hire some experts and the money flows out.
I know. When I saw that estimate of $20k I was like, ummm...
 
My club had a legal fund set up just in case. We had an issue with wetland designations which wasn't that involved and we ate up almost a hundred thousand very quickly. Hire some experts and the money flows out.
yep.. I'm a senior consultant for an environmental permitting firm.. I bill at $215/hr for technical work. We bill out for expert court testimony at 1.5X our regular rate.
 
If you have a neighborhood in range and all it takes is some ass hat to ND over the berm than either you need taller berms or some structure that 100% restricts rounds from leaving the property since judicious marksmanship isn't gonna cut it.
JFC it’s a no blue sky range, a tall berm, forest/swamp in between the range and the neighborhood. It is ballistically impossible for a round from the range to lodge into the side of one of the houses. On a roof? Maybe. Did you look at the pic? The hole in the screen is in a direct line w the hole in the glass. That shot couldn’t have been made w a rifle round let alone a .45 caliber pistol. Ffs you won’t be happy until you can prove that round came from the range. The neighbors have had a case of the ass for the club for some time, they have been caught lying about rounds coming from the range before. There have been complaints about people shooting in the woods near the neighborhood. But no.. it just could be a magic bullet from a ND on that range 🙄. And we wonder why judges make the rulings they do?

If someone intentionally tried to shoot above the berm, crouched down, stretched out they MIGHT be able to get a shot over the berm. And if they did, it’s impossible that a round would go over the berm, travel 2,000 feet in a straight line through the woods and lodge itself in the side of the house making a hole in the screen directly behind the hole in the glass.

But go ahead and tell us again that the awning isn’t sufficient because the homeowner sez… 🙄
 
JFC it’s a no blue sky range, a tall berm, forest/swamp in between the range and the neighborhood. It is ballistically impossible for a round from the range to lodge into the side of one of the houses. On a roof? Maybe. Did you look at the pic? The hole in the screen is in a direct line w the hole in the glass. That shot couldn’t have been made w a rifle round let alone a .45 caliber pistol. Ffs you won’t be happy until you can prove that round came from the range. The neighbors have had a case of the ass for the club for some time, they have been caught lying about rounds coming from the range before. There have been complaints about people shooting in the woods near the neighborhood. But no.. it just could be a magic bullet from a ND on that range 🙄. And we wonder why judges make the rulings they do?

If someone intentionally tried to shoot above the berm, crouched down, stretched out they MIGHT be able to get a shot over the berm. And if they did, it’s impossible that a round would go over the berm, travel 2,000 feet in a straight line through the woods and lodge itself in the side of the house making a hole in the screen directly behind the hole in the glass.

But go ahead and tell us again that the awning isn’t sufficient because the homeowner sez… 🙄
Check out the Forensic Files episode entitled Magic Bullet, since you mentioned it.
 
Reality is that at a closing you are handed a stack of papers and told "sign here, here, and there". Nobody reads all that paper!
Practical effect is probably that real estate agents
failing to slip the disclaimer into the pile
adds the real estate agents to the set of civil defendants.

Won't get specific performance out of them,
but might get a nice weekend in Vegas worth of damages.
 
As a gun club, I would hesitate to enlist agents to spread our word, or to be involved in the sale process in any way. Meddling in a transaction like that, has got to come with liabilities you may not even be aware of.

Every lawyer we consulted at my range explicitly advised us to notify all real estate agents in this way.
 
I don't see it happening from the short range firing line.


But the club rules there say there is a position at the rifle range for prone, kneeling, and sitting, and 45 ACP carbines exist. How tall is the berm on the rifle range?
The prone, kneeling and offhand positions are protected with three different eyebrows and stone boxes. There is no blue sky from any of those positions. There are two ways for a bullet to travel a given distance at a given velocity. The smaller angle is completely eliminated by the berm , eyebrow, and stone box. If a round hits an object on the ground close to the firing line and ricochets at a large enough angle, it could clear the berm and possibly go just the right distance to hit the house. It would be coming down at an even larger angle than the large angle that it started at. The picture from 2015 does not show this steep angle between the screen and the window. I am not sure what might have happened in July.
 
The prone, kneeling and offhand positions are protected with three different eyebrows and stone boxes. There is no blue sky from any of those positions. There are two ways for a bullet to travel a given distance at a given velocity. The smaller angle is completely eliminated by the berm , eyebrow, and stone box. If a round hits an object on the ground close to the firing line and ricochets at a large enough angle, it could clear the berm and possibly go just the right distance to hit the house. It would be coming down at an even larger angle than the large angle that it started at. The picture from 2015 does not show this steep angle between the screen and the window. I am not sure what might have happened in July.
OK. Based on that information, I agree. It's kind of bad news, though, since with such precautions already in place, it is hard to make "improvements". What options are left to satisfy the court, to raise the berms a little higher?
 
OK. Based on that information, I agree. It's kind of bad news, though, since with such precautions already in place, it is hard to make "improvements". What options are left to satisfy the court, to raise the berms a little higher?
Targets (paper)are supposed to be hung at a height that puts the bullets into the berm. If people shoot at shit on the ground a few yards down range there isn't a lot that can be done. Maybe the slanted board trellis arrangement from zero to 50 yards. Or build a roof...
 
Clubs that comply with such requests must be VERY careful to document that they are doing it as a courtesy, not as settlement of any dispute or agreement to so limit hours in the future, or to place any constraints upon operational changes consistent with state and federal law.

If there is a dispute with the club in the future, you can count on the other side claiming there is already an "agreement" limiting hours that is the point from which negotiations begin. When my club got a letter asking about hours, more words were spent in the response qualifying that we retained the right to change hours in any legal way possible, that our statement of current shooting hours was not to be construed as a contract, promise or representation, implied or otherwise that they could not be changed or expanded at any time of choosing than actually stating the hours.
The request for no shooting Sunday afternoons by the condo sales office was denied by BR&P. Members were made aware of the request at a members meeting when it happened and I think a lot of us laughed.
 
Check out the Forensic Files episode entitled Magic Bullet, since you mentioned it.
Yes, people keep mentioning this episode, but without mentioning that the competition in question was shooting from a spot on the range where the side of the building was exposed and had multiple bullet holes in it. That's negligence, not a "magic bullet", regardless of the episode's title.
 
Yes, people keep mentioning this episode, but without mentioning that the competition in question was shooting from a spot on the range where the side of the building was exposed and had multiple bullet holes in it. That's negligence, not a "magic bullet", regardless of the episode's title.
Valid points, but relevant items (to this general discussion) I think include the fact that the shot was not fired from the firing line, but forward of it, the shot may have been a double strike, there was only ever a sliver of the building visible, and, most relevantly to your post (if only somewhat), that the bullet performed quite unexpectedly and deflected off a soft ceiling tile, altering its fatal course. As I said, not perfectly relevant to your post.
 
Ya know, if you didn't belong to a club, but really wanted to shoot your newly acquired pistol, where could you do it without fear that someone would call the cops because they heard gunfire? The woods near a gun club
I know that is a bit far fetched, but no more than a pistol round on a no blue sky range bouncing off a rock, changing trajectory, and still having enough energy to travel over 1000 yards and going through a window.

It's probably to late now, but I wonder if the homeowner would have gone away if her kids were the first recipients of the Angletree Special Student Whole College Scholarship? The A.S.S. Whole College Scholarship
 
Ya know, if you didn't belong to a club, but really wanted to shoot your newly acquired pistol, where could you do it without fear that someone would call the cops because they heard gunfire? The woods near a gun club
I know that is a bit far fetched, but no more than a pistol round on a no blue sky range bouncing off a rock, changing trajectory, and still having enough energy to travel over 1000 yards and going through a window.

It's probably to late now, but I wonder if the homeowner would have gone away if her kids were the first recipients of the Angletree Special Student Whole College Scholarship? The A.S.S. Whole College Scholarship

Another fun thing is club trespassers that are too f***ing cheap to get a membership. One club I was a member of, I "caught" a dad and a lad using our archery range while being parked outside the gate. (all members have keys to open the gate, so theres no reason for anyone to park on the road). The "dad" mumbled something about forgetting his key, but that makes no f***ing sense, because if he was actually a member he could have driven down the street and maybe tapped on the presidents door and gotten another key. Or he would have parked somewhere less stupid at least, and not right next to the gate on a road with barely any shoulder to park a car. I knew he wasnt a member because they got lost within about 30 seconds of me arriving, its not like I accosted him or anything but it was pretty obvious. Another member at the same club told me one day he opened the gate and came in and found some old lady shooting her 38 revolver at the archery targets. Another trespasser. thankfully she left and never came back. And thankfully the way the terrain rolls any misses probably went into the dirt and not into the neighbors house.
 
OK. Based on that information, I agree. It's kind of bad news, though, since with such precautions already in place, it is hard to make "improvements". What options are left to satisfy the court, to raise the berms a little higher?
What will raising the berms or additional precautions do? According to @Miguelito we should watch the Forensic Files episode entitled Magic Bullet which will explain to us how this can happen and since it can happen, that's all the court needs to shut them down. Or did they provide mitigation information in that episode which make it scientifically impossible for it to happen Mig?
 
Ya know, if you didn't belong to a club, but really wanted to shoot your newly acquired pistol, where could you do it without fear that someone would call the cops because they heard gunfire? The woods near a gun club
I know that is a bit far fetched, but no more than a pistol round on a no blue sky range bouncing off a rock, changing trajectory, and still having enough energy to travel over 1000 yards and going through a window.
It really isn't, as I said earlier I hear this occasionally at my club. The area is wooded and there are houses around the club and I hear shooting from time to time in the distance, including someone who has a FA or bump stock. Like I said most will assume it's coming from the club.
 
What will raising the berms or additional precautions do? According to @Miguelito we should watch the Forensic Files episode entitled Magic Bullet which will explain to us how this can happen and since it can happen, that's all the court needs to shut them down. Or did they provide mitigation information in that episode which make it scientifically impossible for it to happen Mig?
In the TV show the safety features were little more than imitations of the real thing. They had a berm that was too low and panels that had gaps and weren't capable of stopping bullets, anyway. There was a friggin' building right behind the berm! That salient point of the show, however, is that bullets can change direction when glancing off not-very-hard surfaces without losing enough energy to be safe. In that case the bullet actually glanced off a ceiling tile after it entered the building, which clearly falls into the category of weird sh*t that can actually happen.

Let's assume at the outset that these bullets did not, in fact, come from the range. You can try to establish that in court. Difficult and not cheap. Whether or not a higher berm helps is less relevant than whether the court could be convinced that it did. FWIW, it sounds like skipping off the ground is the only way a bullet leaves this range. A higher berm might help a little bit, but maybe there is a specific mitigation for that possibility. Maybe a low wall of some kind. I don't know.
 
Back
Top Bottom