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Judge shuts down North Attleboro Gun Club Until Improvements Made
- Thread starter Buck F
- Start date
Yes and no. I'm willing to bet most didn't know about the club. In my experience, most RE agents will "fail to mention" (or outright lie) about any gun club close by.
LTCRN
NES Member
Then are they, the real estate scumbag, opening themselves and the realtor office up for a lawsuit through non disclosure or does that only fall upon the actual seller?
Buck F
NES Member
- Ted Oven is the club VP
- No rapid fire allowed, must be controlled rate of fire. Something like one shot every two seconds or you get your peepee smacked.
- Can only have 5 rounds in the mag at a time
Yes it is! Unless a club is willing to spend the money for expert witnesses and can somehow convince an anti-2A judge to rule on facts (very difficult in MA), the plaintiffs will win on "feels" every time in MA. I don't expect the club to be permanently shut down, but I expect that they will have to do a lot of remediation and instill even more Fudd-ish rules to continue to exist . . . until the next time there is a complaint.
I've witnessed it personally in 2 clubs where I was a member.
I now live full-time in NH and it is not an issue at my NH club. In fact it isn't an issue at Mansfield F&G where I'm a life member either. Both of tons of conservation land behind their ranges so that it isn't an issue.
RE agent. I just sold my house in MA, 1/4 mile from the shooting positions at a club. I never met the buyers and my RE agent lives in the town. I'm willing to bet that he never mentioned it to them. It's only an issue if the buyers file a complaint and that almost never happens against RE agents for this sort of thing.
EMTDAD
NES Member
in 2021 there's no excuse for not doing your due diligence when buying property. you're thinking of making an offer on a house, you pull it up in Google earth and see what's nearby... It's easier than ever. 20 yrs ago, you were stuck driving around the neighborhood at weird times to see what it was like..
as for Angle Tree.. I visited when looking for a club... I wasn't impressed with the attitude of the members giving the tour/safety briefing.. glad I didn't join.
where I am now, they built a giant indoor kart racing track right downrange. We have short ranges. our 50' pistol range has telephone poles across the width, but only 4 stalls.. Our 50 yd rifle is still open sky... we've been tossing around ideas of how to proactively rectify that before we have an issue.
as for Angle Tree.. I visited when looking for a club... I wasn't impressed with the attitude of the members giving the tour/safety briefing.. glad I didn't join.
where I am now, they built a giant indoor kart racing track right downrange. We have short ranges. our 50' pistol range has telephone poles across the width, but only 4 stalls.. Our 50 yd rifle is still open sky... we've been tossing around ideas of how to proactively rectify that before we have an issue.
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This is why you send the developer and town planning board a letter (if new) a letter with the below, as well as to all RE agents selling houses in proximity to your club.
- We exist, are protected under MGL.... (noise ordnance) and plan on continuing to exist.
- We allow legal hunting during season
- We currently allow shooting (specific days/times) but this information shall not be considered a promise, commitment, or agreement not to modify our shooting hours in the future.
- Some buyers may consider this relevant to a purchase/lease decision so we advise and request your agent inform all prospective buyers of the above
FIFY.
"We didn't know..... would not have bought....." is a common refrain from people who do not like gun ranges.
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fencer
NES Member
Especially if it's a "no blue sky" range.
But I have no doubt the projectile is more than capable of traveling that distance. But an investigation into the trajectory of the round should reveal the truth.
Trouble is I doubt the judge really cares about an invesigation and facts, cuz guns are bad, mmmkay.
This.
Unless you can produce an airtight account of what happened, which you can't, there is no evidence the judge will consider that doesn't include "the bullet came from she shooting club next door". But I encourage everyone to keep posting their own calculated "evidence", it's all so amusing.
xtry51
NES Member
This. It is critical all ranges have a form letter they send to all local real estate agencies and watch what houses come up for sale. Is this stupid insanity created by out if control gov? Yup. But it gives your range a very simple starting point to turn a complaint around on a snkwflake
My favorite argument so far has been "this neighbor is trying to take my rights away". I was unaware of any rights granted by the constitution, that guaranteed the right to use my neighbor's Andersen double-hungs as a back stop!
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Or better yet, motivate someone bothered by a gun range nearby to seek an alternative property. Everyone wins, except the listing agent who does not collect a commission on that sale.
As a gun club, I would hesitate to enlist agents to spread our word, or to be involved in the sale process in any way. Meddling in a transaction like that, has got to come with liabilities you may not even be aware of.
Screw that! Nobody wants to live next to a gun range. All them bullets crashing through your windows. No way.
AHM
NES Member
If the problem is either homeowners faking evidence of rounds leaving the range
or idiots in the woods conducting target practice with no backstop, (<= see "Long Island Expressway(?) Sniper")
it would be a shame if someone was to discover a handful of .45ACP brass,
and tin cans with holes in them in woods off the property,
line of sight from the house in question.
to disprove the complaint that the bullet came from the club.
It just assumes it is true and screws the club.
Why would the court lift a cuticle to order some intricate investigation
that the police have absolutely no interest in performing?
like asking the police to raid the houses of
everyone who was on the property one day
in search of stray handguns.
If the club requires visitors to log in,
even if they are members' guests,
that includes the houses of near-strangers.
that they are involved in a crime in the future.
And if they do find that the boolit came from some member at the range,
it just proves that wild shots from the range can hit houses,
and guarantees they will have to provide 100% mitigation -
not just reasonable accommodations.
Some police may even know enough ballistics to suspect the evidence is faked,
but lack the incentive to tell the judge to curb his enthusiasm.
has a lot more to lose than just their elected position.
who thinks they might sell their house some day
like forcing their selling agent to disclose a condition that
lowers property values on the remote chance that Karen McNimby
buys a house and then starts bitching about the gun club.
Circulating that letter gives every home owner in town an incentive
to shut your club down before they put their house on the market.
Should the club add a clause to their membership application,
"The Club reserves the right to demand police search your house for guns
if we ever receive a negligent discharge complaint"?
Seems like that should only weed out the people who shoot over berms.
if/when we move, because we're walking distance from the clubhouse
and hiking distance (and earshot) from the ranges in a green town.
It's a definite selling point to discriminating buyers.
or idiots in the woods conducting target practice with no backstop, (<= see "Long Island Expressway(?) Sniper")
it would be a shame if someone was to discover a handful of .45ACP brass,
and tin cans with holes in them in woods off the property,
line of sight from the house in question.
The court has absolutely no incentive whatsoever
to disprove the complaint that the bullet came from the club.
It just assumes it is true and screws the club.
Why would the court lift a cuticle to order some intricate investigation
that the police have absolutely no interest in performing?
Well, if it's hitting windows; sure. (<= See "frustrated homeowner")
Stand right in front of a window screen and lob a .45ACP round using a Wrist Rocket.
Nothing says "re-elect me to club management"
like asking the police to raid the houses of
everyone who was on the property one day
in search of stray handguns.
If the club requires visitors to log in,
even if they are members' guests,
that includes the houses of near-strangers.
Not to mention having the guns' ballistics filed (in NCIC?) on the off chance
that they are involved in a crime in the future.
And if they do find that the boolit came from some member at the range,
it just proves that wild shots from the range can hit houses,
and guarantees they will have to provide 100% mitigation -
not just reasonable accommodations.
It's not a criminal case because the police DGAF.
Some police may even know enough ballistics to suspect the evidence is faked,
but lack the incentive to tell the judge to curb his enthusiasm.
A club officer who starts agitating for search warrants to be served on people
has a lot more to lose than just their elected position.
Nothing says "We love you" to every town resident
who thinks they might sell their house some day
like forcing their selling agent to disclose a condition that
lowers property values on the remote chance that Karen McNimby
buys a house and then starts bitching about the gun club.
Circulating that letter gives every home owner in town an incentive
to shut your club down before they put their house on the market.
Should the club add a clause to their membership application,
"The Club reserves the right to demand police search your house for guns
if we ever receive a negligent discharge complaint"?
Seems like that should only weed out the people who shoot over berms.
I'm seriously considering trolling my club's membership (and NES)
if/when we move, because we're walking distance from the clubhouse
and hiking distance (and earshot) from the ranges in a green town.
It's a definite selling point to discriminating buyers.
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It is not meddling to notify an agent of a fact. I can think of no basis for a suit based on "telling an agent a relevant fact".
Inserting yourself into the sales process by talking to sellers, buyers, home inspectors, etc. directly would be a different matter.
I prefer that my clubs response to "we didn't know you were here, so the fact that you were here when we bought is not relevant" be "We notified the agent and requested they inform all prospective buyers, that is an issue between you, the agent and the real estate licensing board" rather than "sorry you didn't know about how we contribute to diversity".
Maybe. But I wouldn't bet my club on it. It's better to not participate. Let them do their own due diligence.
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Either way you are betting the club - it's like medical treatment where you care often given the choice to trade one set of risks for another. As with many things, opinions of the relative risks varies between individual. Sort of like deciding if you want a Covid shot.
As to "amateur conclusions and evidence" - the only credible conclusion that can be arrived from the publicly available information is "I don't know if it came from the club".
I agree, but it sounds like you are suggesting that someone thought it was likely. Somebody asked what it would do. I basically respond "nothing good" from the club's perspective and that consequently they shouldn't go down that path unless forced. What I hear you saying is that they will not be forced. Okaaayyyy....
KBCraig
NES Member
You were advocating that the club provide a list of members who were on site, and which guns they own, for ballistics testing.
That's not how criminal investigations work.
"Hey, 911, I found a bullet hole in my house!"
Police: "Round up the usual suspects and search their homes for .45 caliber guns!"
Um. No.
I don't see it happening from the short range firing line.
But the club rules there say there is a position at the rifle range for prone, kneeling, and sitting, and 45 ACP carbines exist. How tall is the berm on the rifle range?
Remember to use a tall step ladder, to get the correct ballistic angle , when using your wrist rocket.
So you do know for a fact that the round came from the range.
Excellent , you should contact the neighbors legal team and offer to testify for them.
I'm sure they will welcome your expertise .
Maybe it will take some time away from your trolling here .
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