Judge shuts down North Attleboro Gun Club Until Improvements Made

Rob Boudrie

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Let's assume at the outset that these bullets did not, in fact, come from the range. You can try to establish that in court. Difficult and not cheap. Whether or not a higher berm helps is less relevant than whether the court could be convinced that it did. FWIW, it sounds like skipping off the ground is the only way a bullet leaves this range. A higher berm might help a little bit, but maybe there is a specific mitigation for that possibility. Maybe a low wall of some kind. I don't know.
You also need to look at the standard the court will be applying ... most likely "any possibility whatsoever that....."
 

Dadstoys

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JFC it’s a no blue sky range, a tall berm, forest/swamp in between the range and the neighborhood. It is ballistically impossible for a round from the range to lodge into the side of one of the houses. On a roof? Maybe. Did you look at the pic? The hole in the screen is in a direct line w the hole in the glass. That shot couldn’t have been made w a rifle round let alone a .45 caliber pistol. Ffs you won’t be happy until you can prove that round came from the range. The neighbors have had a case of the ass for the club for some time, they have been caught lying about rounds coming from the range before. There have been complaints about people shooting in the woods near the neighborhood. But no.. it just could be a magic bullet from a ND on that range 🙄. And we wonder why judges make the rulings they do?

If someone intentionally tried to shoot above the berm, crouched down, stretched out they MIGHT be able to get a shot over the berm. And if they did, it’s impossible that a round would go over the berm, travel 2,000 feet in a straight line through the woods and lodge itself in the side of the house making a hole in the screen directly behind the hole in the glass.

But go ahead and tell us again that the awning isn’t sufficient because the homeowner sez… 🙄
Not to mention miss every tree in between.
 

dwarven1

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Chain of custody comes to mind. The evidence presented is suspect because it was provide by the plaintiff, testimony accepted from the plaintiff's expert, and no independent oversite of the custody of the bullet and assurances that it was not tampered with by the plaintiff's side - nor was the window and screen impounded for evidence and neutral (MSP lab) or dual-sided expert trajectory analysis.

What of the two overlapping circular spalled areas around the bullet hole? There should be three points of interest for trajectorizaton (or, so I made up a new word) - the screen hole; the first layer of glass and the second layer. Did he generate an estimated trajectory from these? If so, what instrumentation did he use? What were his qualifications and documented capability with said instrumentation? Did his report even mention the ballistic coefficient of the found projectile? What about weight of the projectile? Any modeling of possible source distances and direction given bullet weight, bc, and velocity ranges of this caliber? Did he document what modeling program he used?

I've been at a trial where this sort of technical data was presented with experts on both sides, but the issue was sound propagation, not bullet spread. The level of detail both experts went into was very specific, and I got an education on the CADNA and SARNAM acoustic modeling programs. I was supposed to testify but they ran out of time and the opponent agreed to accept the experts description of my part in the process. (I was the trigger man for field testing). It was not just an expert for the plaintiff saying "yeah, it's going to be noisy out there".

Why does the expert step outside his area an use the term "almost certainly?". A true professional would stick to facts like "consistent with". I've read true expert reports with proper wording like "The metal was within all specifications for 1140 hot rolled plate steel with no evidence of heat treating" rather than "the submitted sample was 1140 steel without heat treating". That his how real experts write technical analysis reports.

As to video - FAR easier to dump access logs IF the club has electronically controlled access.

reference to the sound stuff: Recreational gun range noise - the price of freedom: Ingenta Connect

Jeez, finally someone who actually knows what he's talking about posts. Good analysis, Rob.

Last time I was there there was some middle aged dude target shooting .22 chrome target pistol, body bladed sideways, off hand on hip, slowly lowering the gun to aim for each shot.

Hey, you don't like the way I shoot - and the way that EVERY BULLSEYE shooter shoots - too bad. Seriously - you're making fun of him because he's older than you and shooting in the exact manner prescribed for bullseye? Have you ever shot in a league of any kind? *shakes head*

What's wrong with Mr. Ted Oven? He's a great guy and Northeast Trading one of the best places to do business in MA [popcorn]

G4Y4HK

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Hi, Ted!!
The berm on our three hundred yard range in about twenty feet tall. Yet members or guests manage to miss it as we can see tree behind it scared by bullets. Same for our fifty hard range. Hopefully they get caught by the trees but a shot could leave the range. We had a few go into a neighbor next door. We didn't doubt they came from our range but the neighbor was good about it and we took corrective action.

Hell, NESer's managed to shoot over the 25' tall berm at Monadnock at every damned car shoot we had. At EIGHTY yards. And managed to HIT THE GROUND in front of it as well. Most people don't shoot nearly as well as they think they do.

This whole thread makes me glad I left Marxachusetts and bought enough land to have my own range in my yard.
 

AHM

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Last time I was there there was some middle aged dude target shooting .22 chrome target pistol, ... slowly lowering the gun to aim for each shot.
Hey, you don't like the way I shoot - and the way that EVERY BULLSEYE shooter shoots - too bad. ... Hell, NESer's managed to shoot over the 25' tall berm at Monadnock at every damned car shoot we had.
5m7in0.jpg
 

groundscrapers

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JFC it’s a no blue sky range, a tall berm, forest/swamp in between the range and the neighborhood. It is ballistically impossible for a round from the range to lodge into the side of one of the houses. On a roof? Maybe. Did you look at the pic? The hole in the screen is in a direct line w the hole in the glass. That shot couldn’t have been made w a rifle round let alone a .45 caliber pistol. Ffs you won’t be happy until you can prove that round came from the range. The neighbors have had a case of the ass for the club for some time, they have been caught lying about rounds coming from the range before. There have been complaints about people shooting in the woods near the neighborhood. But no.. it just could be a magic bullet from a ND on that range 🙄. And we wonder why judges make the rulings they do?

If someone intentionally tried to shoot above the berm, crouched down, stretched out they MIGHT be able to get a shot over the berm. And if they did, it’s impossible that a round would go over the berm, travel 2,000 feet in a straight line through the woods and lodge itself in the side of the house making a hole in the screen directly behind the hole in the glass.

But go ahead and tell us again that the awning isn’t sufficient because the homeowner sez… 🙄
and what is their awning made from? We talking sheets of ar500 or corrugated steel. I know of another range on the western side of the state with one of those and its peppered in holes.
 

groundscrapers

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I don't think they necessarily agree with that standard, more it's just that they acknowledge that it is what it is.
If there is a possibility for someone to ND a round and have it leave the property and hit a house the court is gonna have a fit with it. They aren't just gonna look at the firing line either. I am sure they would consider that someone handling a loaded gun coming in and out of their vehicle could dump a round off as well. I'm not saying I like it but its the reality of the situation where you have a densely populated state with ranges nestled amongst houses.
 

white feather

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If there is a possibility for someone to ND a round and have it leave the property and hit a house the court is gonna have a fit with it. They aren't just gonna look at the firing line either. I am sure they would consider that someone handling a loaded gun coming in and out of their vehicle could dump a round off as well. I'm not saying I like it but its the reality of the situation where you have a densely populated state with ranges nestled amongst houses.
If a round hit the house from the club, it wouldn't have been a ND so stop making it sound like someone did this on purpose or intentionally. The club has been a good neighbor in the community for ninety seven years.
Using your logic, anyone who owns a gun within a three mile radius could have shot the house accidently or as you say, negligently. I sense you would like to ban all guns in this "densely populated state"...
With all due respect, F**k off.
 

drgrant

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If a round hit the house from the club, it wouldn't have been a ND so stop making it sound like someone did this on purpose or intentionally. The club has been a good neighbor in the community for ninety seven years.
Using your logic, anyone who owns a gun within a three mile radius could have shot the house accidently or as you say, negligently. I sense you would like to ban all guns in this "densely populated state"...
With all due respect, F**k off.

Not sure if serious, someone squirts a round off when they didn’t mean to and it goes in an unsafe direction it’s definitely an ND. I think it’s a little retarded, however, to assume by default that it came from the club.
 

Broccoli Iglesias

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See if the club management would agree to provide attendance records for the narrow day/ time of shooting. The cops could start there, get a warrant, ballistics check on guns on those handful of people. If they’ve traded / sold 45 cal guns since the incident then trace down the new owners and run ballistics.

Again, if club in the clear, great. If some moron had a ND let the club deal with him. If it was purposeful reckless behavior there could be other consequences but the club by taking action could demonstrate it does not tolerate rule breaking of morons. And it should keep operating.
So, have the cops break into everyone's home, take guns and finger f*ck them.

How about NO.

Also, I would like to know, how do you do a ballistics check on a smashed piece of lead?
 

Buck F

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Using your logic, anyone who owns a gun within a three mile radius could have shot the house accidently or as you say, negligently. I sense you would like to ban all guns in this "densely populated state"...
With all due respect, F**k off.

This

Not sure if serious, someone squirts a round off when they didn’t mean to and it goes in an unsafe direction it’s definitely an ND. I think it’s a little retarded, however, to assume by default that it came from the club.

Agree that WF's definition of ND/Accidental may need a little review but I think the broader point he's making is that "anyone who owns a gun within a three mile radius could have shot the house accidently or as you say, negligently" is spot on.
 

white feather

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Not sure if serious, someone squirts a round off when they didn’t mean to and it goes in an unsafe direction it’s definitely an ND. I think it’s a little retarded, however, to assume by default that it came from the club.
I understand and agree with what you are saying but the original 2015 incident was alleged to have occurred at a bowling pin shoot. The bullet was flattened as if it had skipped off a pin at a large angle, went over the berm and hit the house. You would consider that negligent?
 

groundscrapers

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If a round hit the house from the club, it wouldn't have been a ND so stop making it sound like someone did this on purpose or intentionally. The club has been a good neighbor in the community for ninety seven years.
Using your logic, anyone who owns a gun within a three mile radius could have shot the house accidently or as you say, negligently. I sense you would like to ban all guns in this "densely populated state"...
With all due respect, F**k off.
An ND is a round dumped in a direction other than where you intended it to go there are no accidents only negligence. Is it possible that it came from elsewhere... sure. Odds of it coming from the shooting range with a firing line 700yds away in the direction of the impact would be higher than some rando at their house.
 

groundscrapers

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I understand and agree with what you are saying but the original 2015 incident was alleged to have occurred at a bowling pin shoot. The bullet was flattened as if it had skipped off a pin at a large angle, went over the berm and hit the house. You would consider that negligent?
100% yes. If there wasn't the means to keep the rounds inside of the range that is still negligent.
 

drgrant

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I understand and agree with what you are saying but the original 2015 incident was alleged to have occurred at a bowling pin shoot. The bullet was flattened as if it had skipped off a pin at a large angle, went over the berm and hit the house. You would consider that negligent?

Taken in that context, no, but that incident sounds suspect as well.
 

Broccoli Iglesias

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and what is their awning made from? We talking sheets of ar500 or corrugated steel. I know of another range on the western side of the state with one of those and its peppered in holes.
Mu guess is...

The awning doesn't necessarily need to stop every round.

Look at every video of someone trying to shoot through several objects, what is the outcome almost every time? ... the bullet gets deviated by the objects and goes up down or out the side.

So, if instead of stopping every round it absorbs a good chunk of energy, deforms the bullet and f*cks up its trajectory, then it would be successful.

A hard metal surface could be worse, the bullets would ricochet in every direction, pieces could even come back to the firing line. Anyone thst has shot steel challenge has had a piece of lead hit them (I had several, never caused any damage), specially when the .22 guys shoot.

Note: This is just a guess from an internet operator posting from his very comfortable office chair while some corporate training BS video plays in the background.
 

FancyGunz

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So is anyone with any sort of experience actually trying to help the club, or is NES just having a philosophical discussion?

More importantly, has anyone in charge at the club actually reached out for help (to GOAL for example) or even WANT any help? Assuming this is a FUDD range I'm guessing the board thinks it is made up of God-like members who know everything, and just want to appease the residents and the courts?

Hopefully not, but I wouldn't be surprised...
 

meh

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If rules mean nothing, you can just step back and send one through the roof, which of course happens from time to time with newbies and idiots at outdoor ranges. I don't think a "no possibility whatsoever that" standard can be met in truth without an unlimited budget. Neighbors can't meet that standard with their cars not running kids over. The airlines can't meet that standard for preventing a jet from crashing into the neighborhood. The city can't meet that standard with the safety of the drinking water. Let's shut it all down. No cars, no planes, no running water.

I'd like to know more about these other alleged strikes. The 2015 incident seems like a fluke at best. These other strikes might be fabricated to support the lawsuit or not. Without details on each one, it means nothing to me.
 

white feather

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100% yes. If there wasn't the means to keep the rounds inside of the range that is still negligent.
The only things in this life that are 100 percent are death and taxes. If you want me to believe that you know with 100 percent certainty where every bullet that you have fired in your life has landed then you haven't shot much or you are full of... If you fire in a safe direction with a good backstop you should be OK.
 

safetyfirst2125

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So is anyone with any sort of experience actually trying to help the club, or is NES just having a philosophical discussion?

More importantly, has anyone in charge at the club actually reached out for help (to GOAL for example) or even WANT any help? Assuming this is a FUDD range I'm guessing the board thinks it is made up of God-like members who know everything, and just want to appease the residents and the courts?

Hopefully not, but I wouldn't be surprised...
Everyone here has concluded “they could make that shot”, it came from the club, the club is gay anyway, has a loser club manager, has a lame firing line and filled with .40 cal owners who know nothing about reloading 50cal with their bare hands and didn’t go to army sniper school.

So no, nobody’s helping 😂
 

cathouse01

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A bullet fired at an angle over a berm can easily travel over 1k feet.

For example, didnt Miculek hit a target at 1K yards with a 9mm fired from a revolver?

If he angled it higher the bullet would go way past the 1K mark.

I am not defending anyone here, I am just saying, that fired at an angle the bullet will make it that far.

Fired at a straight line, it probably wouldn't make it past 500. My steel challenge [email protected] loads have about a 1 to 2' drop at 100 yards. I was shooting at a 100 yard gong this past Friday with it, hitting it fairly consistently aiming about 2' high.
Here are the videos of Jerry breaking a ballon at 1000 yards - twice. Once with a 9 mm revolver and once with a .44 mag.


Note that he didn’t actually hit the ballon the first time, he hit the large steel plate that it was taped to and the splatter broke the ballon. The second time, with the .44 mag he actually hit the ballon.

Also, looking at him shooting, he is not “lobbing” the round in, in both cases the gun doesn’t appear to be at that extreme of an up angle.

For a good explanation of “no blue sky” see Clark Vargas’s article; Surface Danger Zone and No Blue Sky Concept | C. Vargas & Associates, LTD.. Clark is a range designer.
 

Broccoli Iglesias

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Here are the videos of Jerry breaking a ballon at 1000 yards - twice. Once with a 9 mm revolver and once with a .44 mag.


Note that he didn’t actually hit the ballon the first time, he hit the large steel plate that it was taped to and the splatter broke the ballon. The second time, with the .44 mag he actually hit the ballon.

Also, looking at him shooting, he is not “lobbing” the round in, in both cases the gun doesn’t appear to be at that extreme of an up angle.

For a good explanation of “no blue sky” see Clark Vargas’s article; Surface Danger Zone and No Blue Sky Concept | C. Vargas & Associates, LTD.. Clark is a range designer.
The angles can be tricky. You look at a BPCR competition and the Sharps rifles dont look like they are aiming that high, but many are aiming like 6' high or higher at 1K yards.

Remember, what might look like a few inches from our point of view translates to several feet down range.
 

cathouse01

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The angles can be tricky. You look at a BPCR competition and the Sharps rifles dont look like they are aiming that high, but many are aiming like 6' high or higher at 1K yards.

Remember, what might look like a few inches from our point of view translates to several feet down range.
Yup, in the videos he says he is aiming way high. But he isn’t obviously aiming up at anything extreme like a 45 degree angle and isn’t “lobbing” them in.
 

groundscrapers

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The only things in this life that are 100 percent are death and taxes. If you want me to believe that you know with 100 percent certainty where every bullet that you have fired in your life has landed then you haven't shot much or you are full of... If you fire in a safe direction with a good backstop you should be OK.
I shoot more rounds in a month than most here do in a year. You are accountable for every bullet that you touch off. I can account for all of mine. I have yet to have an ND in R&D, practice, or at a match.
 

KBCraig

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I understand and agree with what you are saying but the original 2015 incident was alleged to have occurred at a bowling pin shoot. The bullet was flattened as if it had skipped off a pin at a large angle, went over the berm and hit the house. You would consider that negligent?
I would call that one an accident.

I would also call BS on the idea of a .45 ACP round skipping off a bowling pin, up into the sky, and then passing through a window at a nearly horizontal angle.
 

white feather

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I shoot more rounds in a month than most here do in a year. You are accountable for every bullet that you touch off. I can account for all of mine. I have yet to have an ND in R&D, practice, or at a match.
Well with only two choices, we can now see that the second choice was the correct one.
I'll play along. Please forgive me Jesus. If I had known who I was speaking to, I wouldn't have told you to f**k off earlier. [bow]
Would you consider joining Angle Tree RGC? Apparently they need more shooters like you. Since you know where they all are, could you grab some of your once fired 147 grain .308 FMJ bullets for me? Thank you. [cheers]
Of course you are absolutely correct (could JC even be incorrect)? It's just your smug a$$ attitude, I would expect more compassion from you. Oh and to answer a question you posed earlier, the eyebrows are made of flattened tin cans glued to tin foil gathered from member's hats.
I am pretty much done here, both literally and figuratively. Have a nice life. I have.
 
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