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Judge shuts down North Attleboro Gun Club Until Improvements Made
- Thread starter Buck F
- Start date
Yes, clearly. Not to say that it is actually possible in this particular case when everything is taken into account, but in theory, a .45 ACP bullet can travel over 1000 yards, arriving at a relatively modest velocity.
I think the "Shooting Angle" parameter doesn't work quite the way you want. I haven't done much of that sort of simulation myself, but I think this is for shooting at a target uphill or downhill, and the resulting computation will be relative to a straight line from the gun to the target. It would be used internally to adjust the direction of the force of gravity vector. I think the way to do what you want is to adjust the "Zero Range" parameter. This indirectly controls the angle between the sights and the bore, resulting in angling the bore up to hit a target at distance. Here's a setup that shows the trajectory extending to 1000 yards with the 200 grain bullet.
Obviously EVERY bit of personal information about everyone can be found in some record or other. But posting someone's personal info, solely because they complained about a gun club is the definition of doxxing. The fact that it was posted on a shooting site could be seen as intimidation. That's not what this site should strive for. This site takes steps to insure you can't identify places that restrict carry, or who ships ammo to MA, this is public info too. It's fun to see how many on here do not see this.
xtry51
NES Member
I did not set and angle of fire. The data I posted assumes level fire as a baseline because using inclination on a ballistics calculator assumes your target is at the inclination and holdover gets adjusted to the gravitational effects change.
Inclination for ballistics is not gun angle.
71montess
NES Member
You should never be allowed to shoot out doors. Only a moron would have such a limp wrist to allow the gun to point to the sky. Why don't you jerk off more with your shooting hand, you know, strengthen those muscles. What a pussy, never heard anyone admit that.
groundscrapers
NES Member
groundscrapers
NES Member
the guy with the hole in his window says there isn't. My come up from a 100yd zero is only 4.6 mrad to reach out and hit 766. I could probably skate the top of the berm and have one carry out that far.
Most of us are gun owners who might take offence at someone attacking our rights.
The other side has no issue what so ever playing dirty.
Then there are the trolls who for some reason are still here.
Buck F
NES Member
Ah, ok then, shut the range down. It's not safe. Got it. The homeowner says it happened so it must be true, it must have come from the range.
It's no wonder we get decisions like these when people who allegedly know about guns don't have a clue about what actually happened and have their BS anecdotes/analyses about how it could have happened.
In fact, shut it down permanently since some dickhead guns guys will find a reason why even if there's every conceivable safety measure in place, that they could make the shot. Tell us, what can the club do that it's not already doing to prevent this?
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1903Collector
NES Member
I'm not too familiar with the area, is it possible someone was shooting off club property but closer to the houses? I know at my club sometimes I can hear people shooting off in the distance, they are obviously not on club property.
1903Collector
NES Member
I only say it because some people don't want to go thru the hassle of joining and they figure "who will no the difference it's so close"
Not thats it's that close but I work right on the Plainville/N Attleboro line, every once in a while I can here someone shooting in the area of Boro Concrete but I thing thats going the wrong direction and much farther away.
Not thats it's that close but I work right on the Plainville/N Attleboro line, every once in a while I can here someone shooting in the area of Boro Concrete but I thing thats going the wrong direction and much farther away.
EMTDAD
NES Member
Probably Independent Sportsmans down Mirimichi
- It is easily possible for a .45 ACP round to carry 1000 yards. So, we cannot argue that it is impossible based on distance.
- Just because it is possible for a .45 ACP round to carry the required distance, it doesn't mean that the geometry at the range allows for it from the firing line. Given that the distance is substantially less than 1000 yards, a "skip" might present possibilities that a direct shot would not.
- Even if the residents are trustworthy, it is plausible that people could have been shooting in the woods between the range and the neighborhood. It's one thing to take your best guess at something, another to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt when plausible explanations are hanging out there unaddressed.
- The residents might not be trustworthy.
safetyfirst2125
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Did they ever match the bullet with a gun owner at the club the day of the incident?
So you think the club should turn over their membership records and camera video, assuming they have that, or gate access information, and then do tests on every 45 owned by any member who might have been there. Ouch! Ya, I'm sure they'd be lined up for that.
Very inexact, but it looks like the club sits about 10' higher than Chris Rd., not much but 10' can add to the possible distance.
Going into court and saying it's not possible will not go well because it is possible. On the other hand, going in and saying they don't believe it came from the club but it is theoretically possible, but would require so pretty extreme coincidences. And then say they will have it looked into professionally and address any concerns. Is far more likely to end with the club still being there.
Going into court and saying it's not possible will not go well because it is possible. On the other hand, going in and saying they don't believe it came from the club but it is theoretically possible, but would require so pretty extreme coincidences. And then say they will have it looked into professionally and address any concerns. Is far more likely to end with the club still being there.
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Chain of custody comes to mind. The evidence presented is suspect because it was provide by the plaintiff, testimony accepted from the plaintiff's expert, and no independent oversite of the custody of the bullet and assurances that it was not tampered with by the plaintiff's side - nor was the window and screen impounded for evidence and neutral (MSP lab) or dual-sided expert trajectory analysis.
What of the two overlapping circular spalled areas around the bullet hole? There should be three points of interest for trajectorizaton (or, so I made up a new word) - the screen hole; the first layer of glass and the second layer. Did he generate an estimated trajectory from these? If so, what instrumentation did he use? What were his qualifications and documented capability with said instrumentation? Did his report even mention the ballistic coefficient of the found projectile? What about weight of the projectile? Any modeling of possible source distances and direction given bullet weight, bc, and velocity ranges of this caliber? Did he document what modeling program he used?
I've been at a trial where this sort of technical data was presented with experts on both sides, but the issue was sound propagation, not bullet spread. The level of detail both experts went into was very specific, and I got an education on the CADNA and SARNAM acoustic modeling programs. I was supposed to testify but they ran out of time and the opponent agreed to accept the experts description of my part in the process. (I was the trigger man for field testing). It was not just an expert for the plaintiff saying "yeah, it's going to be noisy out there".
Why does the expert step outside his area an use the term "almost certainly?". A true professional would stick to facts like "consistent with". I've read true expert reports with proper wording like "The metal was within all specifications for 1140 hot rolled plate steel with no evidence of heat treating" rather than "the submitted sample was 1140 steel without heat treating". That his how real experts write technical analysis reports.
As to video - FAR easier to dump access logs IF the club has electronically controlled access.
reference to the sound stuff: Recreational gun range noise - the price of freedom: Ingenta Connect
What of the two overlapping circular spalled areas around the bullet hole? There should be three points of interest for trajectorizaton (or, so I made up a new word) - the screen hole; the first layer of glass and the second layer. Did he generate an estimated trajectory from these? If so, what instrumentation did he use? What were his qualifications and documented capability with said instrumentation? Did his report even mention the ballistic coefficient of the found projectile? What about weight of the projectile? Any modeling of possible source distances and direction given bullet weight, bc, and velocity ranges of this caliber? Did he document what modeling program he used?
I've been at a trial where this sort of technical data was presented with experts on both sides, but the issue was sound propagation, not bullet spread. The level of detail both experts went into was very specific, and I got an education on the CADNA and SARNAM acoustic modeling programs. I was supposed to testify but they ran out of time and the opponent agreed to accept the experts description of my part in the process. (I was the trigger man for field testing). It was not just an expert for the plaintiff saying "yeah, it's going to be noisy out there".
Why does the expert step outside his area an use the term "almost certainly?". A true professional would stick to facts like "consistent with". I've read true expert reports with proper wording like "The metal was within all specifications for 1140 hot rolled plate steel with no evidence of heat treating" rather than "the submitted sample was 1140 steel without heat treating". That his how real experts write technical analysis reports.
As to video - FAR easier to dump access logs IF the club has electronically controlled access.
reference to the sound stuff: Recreational gun range noise - the price of freedom: Ingenta Connect
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How far in to the room, where did the projectile, come to rest? The windowsill, in the floor, on the carpet, in the wall on the other side of the room.
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And what did it hit? Another trajectory point.
Bro, you are still talking about this doxxing sh*t?
I hope you call every news paper every time they publish all the information of a person presumed to have committed a crime but not found guilty. That type of info destroys peoples lives.
Do you call the papers to complain?
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What would that do?
Let's say they find out John Smith owns the gun, now what?
If there are cameras they can see if the guy was being a moron or if it was an honest mistake. It happens to most of us, almost everyone here at some point shot over the berm or hit the ground.
It would prove in a direct way that the bullet came from the range. Good reason for the club not to cooperate with the effort unless ordered to by the court.
Not a shocker. It also had a rep as hardcore fudd club (may or may not be true, i know we had people bitching about AT management in the distant past) but imo that almost strengthens their position. (Probably minimal activity there on pistol range but who knows given last 2 yrs)
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Your the guy that complained when a member payed for your green membership right? If I remember correctly you wanted it refunded.
Save us all your faux outrage over doxxing.
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