Judge shuts down North Attleboro Gun Club Until Improvements Made

Buck F

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All of you who are saying a pistol bullet cannot travel x number yards or feet...A pistol bullet can travel a lot farther than you think if shot on a parabola. Yeah, it might not have an incredible amount of power at the end, but still.
I posted on the other AngleTree thread that the first time I shot a .357, it jumped on me and I am fairly certain it went over the baffle at an outdoor range. My shot wasn't a little high, it was way high.
I believe the people in this case. With all the rounds fired at a range, is it that hard to believe that one or two or three went off way high and travelled a thousand yards?

This had them, but my shot went over it.

There was nothing over the shooting line. There was a berm down range and creosote logs over head at 20 yards,.from about eight feet to 10.

In your post in the other thread you said you're not even sure if your round left the range, you assume it did. Creosote logs with gaps in them is far different than a metal awning. I have shot at Angle Tree several times, I'm 6'0" and feel like i have to purposely fire low to shoot under the awning. I also belong to a nearby club that has the creosote log set up, the difference is like night and day.

For arguments sake, lets say someone leaned way out over the firing line and purposely shot under the awning and up over the berm (which is rather high), do you then expect a .45 to travel 1800-2000 feet through woods and hit the side of a house straight on? It's not 1000 yards, it's twice that to the street in question and not even in a straight line. The hole in the screen and the one in the window are in line w/ each other. At best, a round would land on the roof or if it hit the side of a house it would be on a steep down angle. People complain about people shooting in the woods surrounding the neighborhood fairly frequently. One homeowner in the neighborhood has already been caught in a lie about a round hitting his house (he admitted to the police that he hammered the round in himself).

These houses were not hit by stray bullets from the range, your .357 stray shot anecdote notwithstanding.
 

Buck F

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To clarify, witnesses say the bullet hole in the screen and the window were the same height and round in shape. A bullet traveling 916 yards must be fired at a significant angle to compensate for the drop required to enter a window located 6-15ft off the ground.

The entry holes would be elliptical and aligned with the drop angle.

The math simply doesn’t work if the facts as reported are true.
It's actually about 1800 feet from the firing line to the edge of the neighborhood
 

safetyfirst2125

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Sorry, I thought you wrote feet, not yards. By my measure it's about 2000 feet in a straight line from the firing line to edge of the cul de sac in the neighborhood. It's longer and at an angle to hit the homes they mention.
I was measuring to Chris Dr where the house was the bullet struck. But close enough.
 
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45. Don’t know what the range layout is but could it fly at least 300 yards with minimal drop?

I’m not believing the stories of errant bullets especially when the old suit was about a handgun bullet ricocheting off a bowling pin and traveling that far. The people in that neighborhood make it sound like pistol calibers are raining out of the sky.


I've seen plenty of rapid-fire bozos at my local club have their rounds end up going over the berms because they can't control the gun.. I don't find it entirely unbelievable. The question is how to best address it so that the club and residents can coexist.

I don;t want to see a single club close... I also don't want to see errant bullets striking houses either...

..also some make the argument that the ballistics of the .45 just don't allow for the case where the slug went through a screen and window at or near level... Ummm okay... but there are assumptions made there... Like the round was fired from a pistol. What if someone was firing it from a rifle, or say a .50 cal muzzleloader w/ a sabot sitting on top of 120 grains of blackhorn 209 - a common whitetail hunting load... Things change pretty drastically.
 
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Broccoli Iglesias

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45. Don’t know what the range layout is but could it fly at least 300 yards with minimal drop?

I’m not believing the stories of errant bullets especially when the old suit was about a handgun bullet ricocheting off a bowling pin and traveling that far. The people in that neighborhood make it sound like pistol calibers are raining out of the sky.
A bullet fired at an angle over a berm can easily travel over 1k feet.

For example, didnt Miculek hit a target at 1K yards with a 9mm fired from a revolver?

If he angled it higher the bullet would go way past the 1K mark.

I am not defending anyone here, I am just saying, that fired at an angle the bullet will make it that far.

Fired at a straight line, it probably wouldn't make it past 500. My steel challenge [email protected] loads have about a 1 to 2' drop at 100 yards. I was shooting at a 100 yard gong this past Friday with it, hitting it fairly consistently aiming about 2' high.
 
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We also called in "range experts" from NRA. These guys I am told were from NJ! Their first remarks were "what do you mean you allow shooting without range officers present" and wrote that in their report.

Which makes it important to do a group training for members and essentially turn them all into RO's upon joining.

I was a member of a club in the Lakes Region of NH that did exactly that. First member on the range was the de facto Range Officer, whether certified or not. The initial range orientation given to new members upon joining can suffice as formal training. You can be a legitimate Range Officer without formal certification by an outside (arbitrary entity) third party.
 

Broccoli Iglesias

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ROs are not the solution to the problem proposed in this thread. Having an adequate awning at the firing line would prevent lobbed rounds.
It shouldn't be too expensive or hard to build one. (Assuming normal lumber prices).

Pembroke seems to have a good one, and there is a school near by, they can't risk it.

Westwood also has a nice one for handgun. Two different designs. The Westwood one looks more expensive to build.
 

xtry51

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If I were designing a no blue sky range awning, I'd build it out of 1/4 AR500. Cover top with corrugated steel for weather, then build a sub awning of plywood with a small gap to protect from small if some retard fired a round upwards.

4x8 sheets of 1/4" AR500 are not expensive.
 

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If I were designing a no blue sky range awning, I'd build it out of 1/4 AR500. Cover top with corrugated steel for weather, then build a sub awning of plywood with a small gap to protect from small if some retard fired a round upwards.

4x8 sheets of 1/4" AR500 are not expensive.
Plywood will rot/harbor insects eventually and create spall if some idiot NDs into it. I'd coat the AR500 with truck bed liner/Rhino Liner's specific armor coating for spall.

Ranges in other parts of the country use prefabricated concrete bridge piers and whatnot for awnings and baffles. That seems to work. Or they have people shoot through firing ports made of concrete sewer culverts. (giant pipe you can stand in) Sucks for noise (for the shooters, actually makes it quieter for the neighbors) and the confined airflow increases risk of airborne lead exposure but it works.
 
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Spartan65

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It shouldn't be too expensive or hard to build one. (Assuming normal lumber prices).

Pembroke seems to have a good one, and there is a school near by, they can't risk it.

Westwood also has a nice one for handgun. Two different designs. The Westwood one looks more expensive to build.
The problem is the 🐀 in the club. Members have offered to do work on the club and pay for upgrades and materials and it fell of deaf ears.
 

Broccoli Iglesias

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The problem is the 🐀 in the club. Members have offered to do work on the club and pay for upgrades and materials and it fell of deaf ears.
Members should show up to a meeting and raise their concerns. Unless they eventually want the club shut down or forced to spend 10x the amount of money.

I am not too familiar with it, but wasn't Braintree forced to spend a ton of money?
 

Len-2A Training

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Members should show up to a meeting and raise their concerns. Unless they eventually want the club shut down or forced to spend 10x the amount of money.

I am not too familiar with it, but wasn't Braintree forced to spend a ton of money?
Yes, Braintree R&P paid a lot of money to ensure no bullets leave the ranges. However, Braintree R&P has a ton of money in their treasury to allow them to do whatever work becomes necessary.
Most clubs are relatively poor by comparison and need to rely on volunteer labor.
 

42!

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To clarify, witnesses say the bullet hole in the screen and the window were the same height and round in shape. A bullet traveling 916 yards must be fired at a significant angle to compensate for the drop required to enter a window located 6-15ft off the ground.

The entry holes would be elliptical and aligned with the drop angle.

The math simply doesn’t work if the facts as reported are true.
I'm not taking a position on this. But want to ask if you took into account the change in elevation between the range and the house. It's clear the land drops in between (steam and wetlands) but is the house on level or below the range? This will affect both the likelihood of a clear path and the possible distance. If they make an argument in court based on ballistics, best not to have any unknown factors come up.
 
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How about if you don't like firearms don't move near a gun range.
Move near the airport.
I was on the Airport Committee at our town airport for years. The number of people who would move in literally next to it and then show up complaining about airplanes flying over their houses was amazing.

One woman asked why they couldn't stay up really high until they got to the airport itself and then just come down there. :rolleyes:
 

EMTDAD

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Using Strelok which I use for rifle and its spot on here is data for RN FMJ 90gr 2,036fps 45ACP with BC .103.

View attachment 519637

And here is RN FMJ 230gr 825fps 45ACP with BC .266

View attachment 519638

It seems like the BC of the 230gr let's it make it with substantial energy left over and a hold over of only a little lest than 20ft hold. This is with a 109yd zero. If you move the zero to 50yds, the holdover increases by 10 inches.
sorry.. i may not be understanding the data.. say for the 2nd table.. is it saying I have to aim 12 feet high to hit my target at 600 yds?

using the calculator I linked to, and the 230 gr bullet info you use, I get a 90' drop at 600yds from flat, whether I shoot flat (0deg) or a 30' drop aiming upward at 70deg. So given that the terrain there is relatively flat, it seems like shooting that pistol round would fall far short of 600 yds. I'm probably screwing something up, right?
 
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God. I feel like I'm arguing with my wife. If you feel strongly about leading people on this forum to that address then you should repost it. You've convinced me, I gotta go sharpen up my pitchfork.

You wanna carpool?

the sale information was posted to show the people didn’t just move in and start complaining about the range

it’s not some deep dark secret about how to find home sales information, I think most people know how to. Why you are in such a huff over it, is beyond me. Do you really think people on this forum are going to drive to these houses or call them?

if anyone doesn’t know how to find property info, look online for the county registry of deeds for that town and use the online system to search by name, property ID, address, etc. you find mortgages, deeds, etc. it’s all publicly available information
 

Broccoli Iglesias

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sorry.. i may not be understanding the data.. say for the 2nd table.. is it saying I have to aim 12 feet high to hit my target at 600 yds?

using the calculator I linked to, and the 230 gr bullet info you use, I get a 90' drop at 600yds from flat, whether I shoot flat (0deg) or a 30' drop aiming upward at 70deg. So given that the terrain there is relatively flat, it seems like shooting that pistol round would fall far short of 600 yds. I'm probably screwing something up, right?
Makes sense. A Sharps shooting a .459 bullet has to aim about that high or higher, for a heavier bullet with better BC traveling faster.
 

Buck F

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I've seen plenty of rapid-fire bozos at my local club have their rounds end up going over the berms because they can't control the gun.. I don't find it entirely unbelievable. The question is how to best address it so that the club and residents can coexist.

I don;t want to see a single club close... I also don't want to see errant bullets striking houses either...

..also some make the argument that the ballistics of the .45 just don't allow for the case where the slug went through a screen and window at or near level... Ummm okay... but there are assumptions made there... Like the round was fired from a pistol. What if someone was firing it from a rifle, or say a .50 cal muzzleloader w/ a sabot sitting on top of 120 grains of blackhorn 209 - a common whitetail hunting load... Things change pretty drastically.

Rapid fire is not allowed at this Fudd club, I believe it's one shot every two seconds and they only allow either 5 or 6 rounds in the mag at a time. The range is question is a hangun range there's no way it could come from the rifle range unless they were shooting at a 30 degree or so angle. And one homeowner in the neighborhood already admitted once to police that he hammered the round into the side of the house. And there are complaints of people firing in the woods near the neighborhood. We can what if all day, there's no way that came from the range and made that kind of a hole.
 
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