IWI X95. Does it have a pistol grip (from the AWB standpoint) or does it not?

[porcor]

I was considering buying IWI X95 rifle from a certain dealer in MA and according to them - the muzzle device on it doesn't have to be permanently attached. The reason they cited to me was that the pistol grip on X95 is not really a pistol grip by MA AWB definition and thus besides threaded barrel there are no other "evil" features" on the rifle. I am looking at the wording in AWB and all I see is "a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon". To me it seems like grip on X95 may fall under this definition. Is there any other language in the law that would further clarify what the pistol grip is, from the legal perspective?

Is it safe to buy this rifle (with non-permanently attached muzzle device, which appears to be an A2 flash hider) from the dealer or am I buying myself a felony by doing this?

Thanks

 

[Waher]

If you are worried about compliance have your local FFL place an order for the specifically named state compliant models from IWI-US:
Tavor now Massachusetts, Maryland and New Jersey-compliant

 

[CrackPot]

The only thing you need to do to the standard x95 is pin and weld a muzzle break (yes, it comes with an A2 flash hider). By "you" I mean the dealer before he sells it to you.

 

[porcor]

The only thing you need to do to the standard x95 is pin and weld a muzzle break

Thank you. That was my understanding as well. The dealer however insists that permanent attachment is not necessary because "the pistol grip on X95 is not really a pistol grip".

There are other dealers who stock "massified" X95s. I was just curious if what these guys are saying has any merit. Because if it does, I'd rather have an ability to swap muzzle devices as I please instead of having a brake that may not even work the way I like, permanently welded to the barrel

 

[CrackPot]

The compliant version from the manufacturer has a pinned and welded break. They don’t do that for kicks. I would not sell one without a pinned/welded break.

 

[HewlettJohn]

I was considering buying IWI X95 rifle from a certain dealer in MA and according to them - the muzzle device on it doesn't have to be permanently attached. The reason they cited to me was that the pistol grip on X95 is not really a pistol grip by MA AWB definition and thus besides threaded barrel there are no other "evil" features" on the rifle. I am looking at the wording in AWB and all I see is "a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon". To me it seems like grip on X95 may fall under this definition. Is there any other language in the law that would further clarify what the pistol grip is, from the legal perspective?

Is it safe to buy this rifle (with non-permanently attached muzzle device, which appears to be an A2 flash hider) from the dealer or am I buying myself a felony by doing this?

Thanks

I know this is an old post but wanted to respond anyway. If I understand correctly, the OP is asking if the grip on the X95 is considered a pistol grip according to the definition of “Pistol Grip” in the AWB. The grip does not “protrude conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.” As legalese definitions are meant to be very specific, and the grip is lower on the Y axis, but forward of the action on the X axis of the weapon, the grip does not meet the definition, IMHO. Therefore, there is only 1 “evil feature” on the Tavor which would preclude the need to have the flash hider pinned as, by definition, it is not an AW. Similarly, a Mini-14 need not have the flash hider pinned as it does not have a pistol grip. I believe the decision to pin or not pin would be left to the interpretation of the FFL. I believe this is referred to as “FFL discretion.” I think if an FFL were brought to court, they would ultimately win this argument. But I understand FFLs erring on the side of caution, considering it is their livelihood.

I am not a lawyer or FFL.. this is a layman’s interpretation but as I’ve given it some serious thought, I consider the interpretation to be sound. I believe the A..G would never address this directly with FFLs to keep the fear of being prosecuted alive in them. My 2 cents.

 

[Soundwave]

Local gunship I had pin and weld a brake on gave it back to me saying it want necessary. Installed it for free because it was one of their products too.

 

[CrackPot]

I know this is an old post but wanted to respond anyway. If I understand correctly, the OP is asking if the grip on the X95 is considered a pistol grip according to the definition of “Pistol Grip” in the AWB. The grip does not “protrude conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.” As legalese definitions are meant to be very specific, and the grip is lower on the Y axis, but forward of the action on the X axis of the weapon, the grip does not meet the definition, IMHO. Therefore, there is only 1 “evil feature” on the Tavor which would preclude the need to have the flash hider pinned as, by definition, it is not an AW. Similarly, a Mini-14 need not have the flash hider pinned as it does not have a pistol grip. I believe the decision to pin or not pin would be left to the interpretation of the FFL. I believe this is referred to as “FFL discretion.” I think if an FFL were brought to court, they would ultimately win this argument. But I understand FFLs erring on the side of caution, considering it is their livelihood.

I am not a lawyer or FFL.. this is a layman’s interpretation but as I’ve given it some serious thought, I consider the interpretation to be sound. I believe the A..G would never address this directly with FFLs to keep the fear of being prosecuted alive in them. My 2 cents.

Its not about the FFL as the FFL is very unlikely to end up in court over this. MGL 140 131M makes it illegal to possess or sell an assault weapon. Unless the police are in the shop at the time of the sale, they cannot prove how the gun left the shop so the FFL has no risk here. The risk is all on the possessor (buyer) as they are the ones with the gun, out in public and potentially getting jammed up (restraining order, red flag, car accident, etc). They are the ones that will get the 131M felon charge and have to defend themselves, not the FFL. There is no FFL discretion here like there is around whether a gun meets 940CMR16 (AG consumer safety regs).

I think anyone who believes the grip on a Tavor is not a pistol grip is highly delusional and at serious risk. The risk is small of getting caught but high of being successfully prosecuted. Your definition of "action" is extremely narrow and inconsistent with what a MA judge would instruct the jury. The action is inclusive of the trigger all the way back to the striker/hammer and passes directly above the grip. It is not the nice compact action non-bullpups have, but a sequence of parts spread out horizontally over almost half the gun. But there is no doubt the pistol grip is below part of the action.

 

[HewlettJohn]

Years ago I purchased a Keltec RDB. I briefly checked the gun out in the gun shop. I looked in the box at the gun, in the plastic, paid the shop and went home. The next day I got the time to check it out and saw the flash hider. The next day, I went back to the shop and privately met with the owner and asked about flash hider. He said the firearm was not part of the AWB and was exempt. I pressed the issue, as I too was concerned about getting caught up in public, randomly in a traffic stop, etc. He reassured me that he has sold more than a couple hundred of them, and has never had a problem. This is where I first heard the term FFL discretion. He stated to sell or not to sell a firearm is at the discretion of the FFL and used the term ‘FFL discretion’ as if the term was commonly used. He also stated that if I were stopped and there was a problem with the sale, that he would be the one that would be in trouble, not me, and he was more than comfortable with the sale as the sale is easily tracked to him as the gun was new. I have since spoken with other FFLs about this, in a hypothetical way, and they agreed.

I went home and not knowing what to believe, I bought a muzzle brake, and had it pinned and welded onto the RDB. I have since sold this firearm.

Not long after the sale, I came across this enumeration of firearms deemed exempt from the AWB on the MA state website:


Frequently Asked Questions about the Assault Weapons Ban Enforcement Notice

You will see that the RFB and Tavor (or, as stated, substantially similar, which the RDB is) are both on this list.

So Sir, I don’t think I am delusional. I am aware of the general shape and form of a pistol grip. I am also aware of the specificity lawyers use in definitions. This specificity is required in order to convey the letter of law in the most exact and precise way possible.

Manufacturers like juggernaut tactical are slightly changing the distance from the bottom of the lower to the trigger guard. According to their lawyers this design is enough to change the rifle enough from the specificity of the law to be a work around to the AWB, at least in CA.

As I stated.. I am not a lawyer. I don’t know for certain but from my research into these things and talking to those that do know much more than I, the specifics count and matter in the description of a firearm as it relates to the AWB and I would now be comfortable purchasing a Tavor that is not pinned/welded.

So let’s summarize..

To date, 3 FFLs have told me they would be comfortable with the sale of a Tavor or RDB as is.. no pin/weld.

On the MA state website, it clearly states that the RDB, Tavor and several other similar firearms are not “copies or duplicates.”

I have seen several lawful gun owners at gun clubs in the state with RDBs, RFBs and Tavors with unpinned flash hiders that held the same belief, understanding and had similar experiences with FFLs on the same topic.

So I suggest you and everyone make their own choices and I will make mine.

Take care

 

[CrackPot]

Years ago I purchased a Keltec RDB. I briefly checked the gun out in the gun shop. I looked in the box at the gun, in the plastic, paid the shop and went home. The next day I got the time to check it out and saw the flash hider. The next day, I went back to the shop and privately met with the owner and asked about flash hider. He said the firearm was not part of the AWB and was exempt. I pressed the issue, as I too was concerned about getting caught up in public, randomly in a traffic stop, etc. He reassured me that he has sold more than a couple hundred of them, and has never had a problem. This is where I first heard the term FFL discretion. He stated to sell or not to sell a firearm is at the discretion of the FFL and used the term ‘FFL discretion’ as if the term was commonly used. He also stated that if I were stopped and there was a problem with the sale, that he would be the one that would be in trouble, not me, and he was more than comfortable with the sale as the sale is easily tracked to him as the gun was new. I have since spoken with other FFLs about this, in a hypothetical way, and they agreed.

I went home and not knowing what to believe, I bought a muzzle brake, and had it pinned and welded onto the RDB. I have since sold this firearm.

Not long after the sale, I came across this enumeration of firearms deemed exempt from the AWB on the MA state website:


Frequently Asked Questions about the Assault Weapons Ban Enforcement Notice

You will see that the RFB and Tavor (or, as stated, substantially similar, which the RDB is) are both on this list.

So Sir, I don’t think I am delusional. I am aware of the general shape and form of a pistol grip. I am also aware of the specificity lawyers use in definitions. This specificity is required in order to convey the letter of law in the most exact and precise way possible.

Manufacturers like juggernaut tactical are slightly changing the distance from the bottom of the lower to the trigger guard. According to their lawyers this design is enough to change the rifle enough from the specificity of the law to be a work around to the AWB, at least in CA.

As I stated.. I am not a lawyer. I don’t know for certain but from my research into these things and talking to those that do know much more than I, the specifics count and matter in the description of a firearm as it relates to the AWB and I would now be comfortable purchasing a Tavor that is not pinned/welded.

So let’s summarize..

To date, 3 FFLs have told me they would be comfortable with the sale of a Tavor or RDB as is.. no pin/weld.

On the MA state website, it clearly states that the RDB, Tavor and several other similar firearms are not “copies or duplicates.”

I have seen several lawful gun owners at gun clubs in the state with RDBs, RFBs and Tavors with unpinned flash hiders that held the same belief, understanding and had similar experiences with FFLs on the same topic.

So I suggest you and everyone make their own choices and I will make mine.

Take care

Lol. You are reading the AG enforcement notice which is political drivel. It is not MGL or a CMR or case law so is nothing more than a gun hating politicians opinion or desire or scare tactics. But let’s for a second assume it means something. She went to the AWB language and clarified what a copy or duplicate means. That does NOT exempt the gun from the feature test, just determines if it is a copy or duplicate of an enumerated gun like the Colt AR15. You still have to check features. People use this website to decide 22LR rifles are exempt from the AWB also which is plainly not so. But I digress…

You are misunderstanding discretion. All federal FFLs have discretion to NOT sell a firearm to anyone for any reason. That does not mean that if they do sell it you are magically immune from prosecution for possession of something illegal. Every day dealers in this state sell guns in violation of the AWB out of ignorance or greed. I see a lot of CZ scorpion pistols in MA acquired from dealers with the owners thinking they are safe because a dealer sold it to them…

In the end what matters is whether you posses a gun that is lawful to possess, not how you got it or who you got it from.

I am a FFL 07/02 and am in the business of regulatory arbitrage. I make finding legal workarounds to stupid MA gun restrictions to get inmates what they can’t get at other shops. I will only sell the tavor and RDB with pinned/welded muzzle brakes. I don’t consider this grey or open for interpretation but a black and white issue.

You are of course free to take whatever risks you choose and live with the consequences. I think instead of consulting FFLs or randoms you should talk to a good attorney like @nstassel . It might save you 10yrs of your life.

 

[HewlettJohn]

I appreciate the advice (even considering the snide LOL). I will consider speaking with an attorney as I would consider it interesting and money well spent, especially if I ever decide to purchase another.

 

[CrackPot]

I appreciate the advice (even considering the snide LOL). I will consider speaking with an attorney as I would consider it interesting and money well spent, especially if I ever decide to purchase another.

Consult the right attorney. There are VERY few lawyers in MA that truly know and understand the law with regards to firearms, even those that claim to. @nstassel Niel Tassel is the only one I recommend.

 

[DarthRevan]

Or, just buy a regular one from a MA dealer who is an 07 and put a brake on a 16” and be more “accurate”.

 

[Grendizer138]

Or, just buy a regular one from a MA dealer who is an 07 and put a brake on a 16” and be more “accurate”.

Or, just stop pant-shitting.

 

[DarthRevan]

Or, just stop pant-shitting.

No promises

 

[Shevchenko]

Consult the right attorney. There are VERY few lawyers in MA that truly know and understand the law with regards to firearms, even those that claim to. @nstassel Niel Tassel is the only one I recommend.

+100 on consulting Neil, it was actually an FFL scaring the shit out of me with misinformation about the AG's "AWB" bs that had me even look for an attorney. He explained what was real and fake and calmed my nerves on my rifle that I still have to this day. He's a great dude and an absolute Godsend to the MA Gun Scene.

 

[pupchow]

Any issues with teardown when a muzzle device is permanently attached to the X95? I'm thinking of the caliber conversion kit, specifically.

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

You are misunderstanding discretion. All federal FFLs have discretion to NOT sell a firearm to anyone for any reason. That does not mean that if they do sell it you are magically immune from prosecution for possession of something illegal. Every day dealers in this state sell guns in violation of the AWB out of ignorance or greed.

What he said 100%.
Personal experience: I was at a shop and saw standard-size Glock mags for sale. I asked the owner "Is this for LE folks?" to which he answered, "Nope. You can buy it. It's your choice how much of a pussy you want to be". I didn't buy the mags. Instead, I found an FFL who had pre-bans and paid 4 times what the mag should have cost. In retrospect, it was a waste of money since they bulge when loaded and are useless. Besides, the only time I use my G34 is at local contests which require neutered 10 rounders anyways.

Personal responsibility is what makes a man. Learn the law and act within the law. If or how closely you follow the law is up to you. I choose to follow the letter of the law but not a step more.

 

[cathouse01]

Any issues with teardown when a muzzle device is permanently attached to the X95? I'm thinking of the caliber conversion kit, specifically.

Just make sure that the diameter of the muzzle device is no bigger than an A2 and you’ll be fine. The foregrip assembly is designed to slide over an A2, but if you put something with a bigger diameter on you’d have to remove it to get the fore grip off.

 

[Ron Jablonski]

Any issues with teardown when a muzzle device is permanently attached to the X95? I'm thinking of the caliber conversion kit, specifically.

Griffin M4SD "linear compensator" pinned and welded. Can confirm no issues with forend removal. You also get the ability for a qd suppressor if that matters to you. As mentioned above just make sure the diameter is equal to or less than the A2 it came with.