Is this brandishing in Mass. ?

Rob Boudrie

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There is no such thing as "brandishing" under MGL. Nor is there any legal requirement to conceal a handgun.

-Mike
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Simkin v. FRB, MA SJC, confirmed that it is not the responsibility of the LTC holder if someone is scared because the LTC holder is doing exactly what the state has licensed him/her to do. In a rare decision favorable to LTC holders, the SJC ordered revoked LTC restored to an individual who caused weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth in a medical facility by calmly advising those attending to his medical needs that he was armed.
 

yogi

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I hope I dont come across as the village idiot but while doing errands from shopping at Demoulas to Home Depot in the summer, I found my hip carry exposed and I didn't know it because I was being a normal human and bending and twisting, etc and my gun was exposed. So far the world seems obliviois, at least in my corner of the universe.
 

Rob Boudrie

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Face it, that's what lawyers are paid to do.

If you were arrested (and were guilty) would you confess and take the maximum sentence, or have a lawyer try to get you off, or a better deal? If you got a speeding ticket, would you just pay, or try to fight it?
More specifically - if the best attorney you could afford had a background as a prosecutor in a previous job, would that prevent you from hiring him/her to defend you?
 
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Never met the guy. That said, he was the lawyer for that side, and he was doing his job.

Now, he's apparently considered a zealous and effective advocate for people on our side.

It's what lawyers do.

Yeah but a non-lawyer can tell that that is a bad argument. Perhaps if he wanted to use that angle, he should instruct restrictions to be printed to mimic exactly what someone writes on their application verbatim.
 

Rob Boudrie

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Yeah but a non-lawyer can tell that that is a bad argument. Perhaps if he wanted to use that angle, he should instruct restrictions to be printed to mimic exactly what someone writes on their application verbatim.
Lawyers are hired to present the best argument for their client's side, no matter how weak. As to Atty Guida - he has always behaved ethically when representing clients on either side of the gun licensing issue and to the best of my knowledge, never acted against the best interests of his client.

Stab someone, get caught in the act, and your attorney will argue "my client picked the knife up off the floor just before the police busted in". It's what they do.

If you want to see "bad argument", just look at the state's argument in Fletcher v. Haas. Even the attorney making the state's argument had to understand the bogosity of what he was saying.
 
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Chevy 2 65

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Face it, that's what lawyers are paid to do.

If you were arrested (and were guilty) would you confess and take the maximum sentence, or have a lawyer try to get you off, or a better deal? If you got a speeding ticket, would you just pay, or try to fight it?
Yeah, OK
 
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There is no criminal offense in MA law called brandishing. There is only assault with a dangerous weapon. If someone gets an accidental glimpse of your holstered gun that is not assault.

This...

If people see you administering first aid and accidentally see your gun they are going to assume you are a police officer.

The doctor's office scenario was a different deal. Odds you are going to have to disrobe for exam. When you do that you no longer have control of safe storage of gun. Simple solution: keep lock box in cat and secure gun there before you go in, same for going to the post office and be sure to park across the street and not on post office property.

This is more Mass paranoia about nothing. Now people are worried about committing an offense that doesn't even exist under the MGL's.

Oh I know suitability disturbing the peace etc. but I think it's a stretch. BTW dress around the gun or do not tender aid as you under no obligation to do so except your own moral code. When you do that you have forgotten the first rule of life: no good dead goes unpunished, and I'm 100 percent serious when I say that. Before you flames say "what if that was you laying in the road!" I'd say that we all gotta go sometime and that my goose was cooked.
 

Len-2A Training

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Mark, my memory may be fuzzy on this but I do believe that a nurse, doctor, EMT or Paramedic are legally obligated to give aid if they stumble upon a situation requiring it.

Everyday citizens not trained as above have no duty to render aid.

If I am correct, the EMT could get into legal trouble by ignoring the situation if anyone spotted him, knew his status (many have EMT stickers on their vehicles) and reported same.
 

warwickben

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Mark, my memory may be fuzzy on this but I do believe that a nurse, doctor, EMT or Paramedic are legally obligated to give aid if they stumble upon a situation requiring it.

Everyday citizens not trained as above have no duty to render aid.

If I am correct, the EMT could get into legal trouble by ignoring the situation if anyone spotted him, knew his status (many have EMT stickers on their vehicles) and reported same.

There's cases of doctors getting in trouble for giving medical help while they where on vacation .
 

the_shootist

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My impression of brandishing when I lived in MA was exposing any of it where someone actually knows you're carrying. The laws are so obtuse and vague there really is no answer that I could think of
 

M1911

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Mark, my memory may be fuzzy on this but I do believe that a nurse, doctor, EMT or Paramedic are legally obligated to give aid if they stumble upon a situation requiring it.

that is not my understanding. If they do give help, however, then there can be malpractice issues, whereas someone who does not have training will be shielded by good Samaritan laws.

- - - Updated - - -

My impression of brandishing when I lived in MA was exposing any of it where someone actually knows you're carrying.

There is no criminal offense called 'brandishing' in MA.
 

the_shootist

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that is not my understanding. If they do give help, however, then there can be malpractice issues, whereas someone who does not have training will be shielded by good Samaritan laws.

- - - Updated - - -



There is no criminal offense called 'brandishing' in MA.

Fair enough....where has the term come from and why is it such a hot topic for MA carriers?
 

M1911

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Fair enough....where has the term come from and why is it such a hot topic for MA carriers?

1) there may be criminal offenses in other states called brandishing.

2) many people are not well educated about the law and there is a good deal of paranoia (some of it well deserved, some of it over the top).
 

the_shootist

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1) there may be criminal offenses in other states called brandishing.

2) many people are not well educated about the law and there is a good deal of paranoia (some of it well deserved, some of it over the top).

Speaking from my experience when I was in MA I spent a lot of time reviewing the laws before and after I obtained my Class A and honestly, didn't trust anything I read because they were so vague. The fly in the ointment for me was an LEO could arrest me for anything and the burden of proof (a rather expensive one at that point) was on me.

- - - Updated - - -

There was no criminal charge in that case. His chief revoked his LTC for suitability.

Was that an appropriate penalty given no criminal charges were pertinent? (forgive me, I'm not privy to all the facts in the case)
 
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There was no criminal charge in that case. His chief revoked his LTC for suitability.
Sorry for the lack of clarity. That was in response to a question earlier in the thread about documented cases where seeing someone's gun got them in trouble. I know there is no such thing as brandishing.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
 
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1) there may be criminal offenses in other states called brandishing. 2) many people are not well educated about the law and there is a good deal of paranoia (some of it well deserved, some of it over the top).

As I recall Arizona used to use the term brandishing but I don't know whether that is part of the law there now or not. Like yourself, I think it is used in other states criminal codes.
 

drgrant

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Was that an appropriate penalty given no criminal charges were pertinent? (forgive me, I'm not privy to all the facts in the case)

In MA because the permits are may issue the CLEO can basically get away with being a dick. It all rests on your CLEO and whether or not he's a dick.

The few cases of "OC resulting in problems" don't generally result in charges or arrest. That lawyer in springfield got "detained" (He was walking down a street, dressed in a suit and his jacket was open, and the cop saw his gun and went full retard on him) and the arrogant cop stole his gun and LTC, and the lawyer took them to court and ultimately got his stuff back, but there were no formalized criminal charges. They'd have to more or less argue you did something "bad" with the gun or there were other mitigating factors. Doesn't mean that the scenario of bologna throwing (randomly applying stupid charges) can't happen, but it's not very likely. The obvious one is ADW, but they can't really get someone with ADW unless they were waving the gun around or holding it, etc. (this happens a lot during road rager cases, guy shows his gun off while raging on the roads with someone, then gets arrested and charged with ADW.) That stuff of course is a whole different ballgame then just walking around with a gun in a holster absent anything else.

-Mike
 

the_shootist

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In MA because the permits are may issue the CLEO can basically get away with being a dick. It all rests on your CLEO and whether or not he's a dick.

The few cases of "OC resulting in problems" don't generally result in charges or arrest. That lawyer in springfield got "detained" (He was walking down a street, dressed in a suit and his jacket was open, and the cop saw his gun and went full retard on him) and the arrogant cop stole his gun and LTC, and the lawyer took them to court and ultimately got his stuff back, but there were no formalized criminal charges. They'd have to more or less argue you did something "bad" with the gun or there were other mitigating factors. Doesn't mean that the scenario of bologna throwing (randomly applying stupid charges) can't happen, but it's not very likely. The obvious one is ADW, but they can't really get someone with ADW unless they were waving the gun around or holding it, etc. (this happens a lot during road rager cases, guy shows his gun off while raging on the roads with someone, then gets arrested and charged with ADW.) That stuff of course is a whole different ballgame then just walking around with a gun in a holster absent anything else.

-Mike

This is why I left!!!
 

M1911

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Was that an appropriate penalty given no criminal charges were pertinent? (forgive me, I'm not privy to all the facts in the case)

No, I don't think it was appropriate. But MA law gives police chiefs a great deal of discretion in issuing or revoking LTCs. After several years and undoubtedly large legal fees, the gun owner as able to get a judge to order the chief to issue him an LTC.

I don't think most Chiefs would go as full retard as this chief did, but that is the risk with discretionary licensing. None of us like it, but we don't have the votes on Beacon Hill to get shall issue licensing.
 

the_shootist

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No, I don't think it was appropriate. But MA law gives police chiefs a great deal of discretion in issuing or revoking LTCs. After several years and undoubtedly large legal fees, the gun owner as able to get a judge to order the chief to issue him an LTC.

I don't think most Chiefs would go as full retard as this chief did, but that is the risk with discretionary licensing. None of us like it, but we don't have the votes on Beacon Hill to get shall issue licensing.

Understood, thanks for the response.
 
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So, like in many cases of potentially frowned upon but legal behavior, the risk is your chief yanks your LTC based on suitability.

In most of these cases nothing criminal has been done. Forget a little peek. Its actually legal to open carry in MA. But its certainly not advisable because of the risk to yoru LTC based on suitability.
 

drgrant

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So, like in many cases of potentially frowned upon but legal behavior, the risk is your chief yanks your LTC based on suitability.

In most of these cases nothing criminal has been done. Forget a little peek. Its actually legal to open carry in MA. But its certainly not advisable because of the risk to yoru LTC based on suitability.

If I was going to make a casual guess at the odds of this being a problem it would probably be pretty minimal, but it's pretty much guarding against the shit lottery. Most of the time you might get a good cop but if you're in a douche town with douche cops, all bets are off.

-Mike
 
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