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Is there an approved safety course with no live fire?

Coyote33 said:
What is, MA law, or live fire? I am pretty sure live fire is not a requirement.
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The law part. You can hand out a copy of the "understanding MA gun laws" pamphlet (whatever it's called) and that's fine.
 
NRAInstructor said:
And yes, I run MA approved NRA Basic pistol courses without the live-fire component. I don't need to see you shoot live ammo to determine if you're safe with a firearm or not.
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If you are offering a course that does not have live fire, then you are not teaching NRA Basic Pistol and can not advertise it as such, nor can you represent to the Commonwealth of MA that your students were taught LTC-007.

If you want to teach an NRA course that is a MA State Police approved course but does not have live fire, then teach NRA Home Firearm Safety.
 
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NRAInstructor said:
Live fire is part of the Basic-Practical qualification, which is separate from the Basic safety course. It is included, but if people wish to opt out of it, I will still issue their safety certificate if they pass the written test and perform dry-fire exercises for me. I just won't give them the rocker.
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It sure isn't in my course outline. My NRA Basic Pistol course outline says the course is 10 hours can consists of 5 lessons:

Lesson I: Pistol knowledge and safe gun handling
Lesson II: Ammunition knowledge and fundamentals of pistol shooting
Lesson III: Firing the first shots
Lesson IV: Two-handed and one-handed standing shooting positions
Lesson V: Pistol sports and activities.

Lessons III and IV are live fire on the range.
 
The NRA Basic Pistol is specifically a LIVE FIRE CLASS.
Home Firearm Safety is a non-live fire class.

To issue NRA Certificates, you must complete each lesson in the instructor lesson plan. In basic pistol, live fire is in there.
You are diminishing the value of that certificate by not completing the course as specified and you are doing a dis service to your students. If you can not provide live fire, don't teach live fire courses.
 
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There is a guy in Saugus that teaches the course with no live fire. Yes that course is still approved. I know this as I spoke to Skouter Rick today to enroll in his course to become an instructor myself.

After April, I will be able to certify if you want to wait till then.
 
NRAInstructor said:
I'm waiting for feedback from the NRA on that. I called in and spoke with someone, and they're pretty sure that in special cases (e.g. the pregnant woman, etc.) you can forgo the live firing. I'll reply back when I hear official word back from the NRA.

And you need to stop with the attitudes... I never said that I DON'T teach live fire courses, all I said was that I would be willing to NOT require the actual live firing for special cases (again, such as the pregnant woman) if they did not want to live fire, but rather have them dry fire instead. And finally, do not tell me what to teach and what not to teach. I've qualified hundreds of people in RI for their permits, and run hundreds of NRA safety courses and have yet to hear about a student having a problem with safety or shooting fundamentals. As far as I'm concerned, this is a technicality and has no bearing the OBJECTIVE of the course, which is to educate. If you NEED to hear a gun go off to determine whether or not your student has learned what you taught them, then you are a poor instructor.

If you actually READ your lesson plans, the NRA even states that the written examination shouldn't be used as pass/fail, but as a tool to help you identify where your students need help, and to help hone your abilities as an instructor. This course is not as rigid and as black & white as you're making it out to be, and I think that it is YOU that is diminishing the true purpose of this course by making it so rigid and black & white.

Even the NRA rep I spoke with on the phone agreed with me, but wanted to double-check and will get back to me. I will do whatever the NRA recommends that I do.
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I wholeheartedly disagree. If a student comes to me for a course, to be instructed on the basics of FIRING a pistol... everything from parts identification to cleaning and marksmanship fundamentals but they do not want the live fire portion, then they will not be getting a certificate from me. I will, however, provide a few optional safety courses that do not involve live fire but to give Basic Pistol certs without live fire.... sorry, no attitude intended, but i won't do it.
 
NRAInstructor said:
I'm waiting for feedback from the NRA on that. I called in and spoke with someone, and they're pretty sure that in special cases (e.g. the pregnant woman, etc.) you can forgo the live firing. I'll reply back when I hear official word back from the NRA.

And you need to stop with the attitudes... I never said that I DON'T teach live fire courses, all I said was that I would be willing to NOT require the actual live firing for special cases (again, such as the pregnant woman) if they did not want to live fire, but rather have them dry fire instead. And finally, do not tell me what to teach and what not to teach. I've qualified hundreds of people in RI for their permits, and run hundreds of NRA safety courses and have yet to hear about a student having a problem with safety or shooting fundamentals. As far as I'm concerned, this is a technicality and has no bearing the OBJECTIVE of the course, which is to educate. If you NEED to hear a gun go off to determine whether or not your student has learned what you taught them, then you are a poor instructor.

If you actually READ your lesson plans, the NRA even states that the written examination shouldn't be used as pass/fail, but as a tool to help you identify where your students need help, and to help hone your abilities as an instructor. This course is not as rigid and as black & white as you're making it out to be, and I think that it is YOU that is diminishing the true purpose of this course by making it so rigid and black & white.

Even the NRA rep I spoke with on the phone agreed with me, but wanted to double-check and will get back to me. I will do whatever the NRA recommends that I do.
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Yes but leaving an actual lesson section out of the course is not allowed. NRA gives you the curriculum, you teach it. Special cases come up, but I think just not running the shooting section because someone doesn't want to is dishonest. If a person doesn't want to shoot, tell then to not sign up for Basic Pistol!
 
Not too long ago, the NRA sent out mail to instructors reminding them you can't teach NRA Basic Pistol with simulators or Airsoft guns, and that if you did, that you couldn't call it an NRA Basic Pistol class nor could you use the NRA name or logo in your advertisement. So if they won't let you replace live fire with a simulator or an Airsoft gun, I don't see how they could let you eliminate live fire entirely and still call it NRA Basic Pistol.

Either you are teaching the entire curriculum or you are not. And if you are not, then you are teaching something else.
 
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NRAInstructor said:
Simulators often have their own program and deviate from the lesson, usually defensive scenarios and/or modified handguns that do not operate the same way normal handguns do.
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Simulators can be used for basic marksmanship as well as defensive simulations.

Airsoft guns aren't even close, so I can't see any instructor worth his or her salt even THINK about using them.
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My Airsoft 1911 looks very much like my regular 1911s and functions exactly the same way. Of course the recoil and report are a lot less than a real gun. But it still has more recoil and report than dry firing [wink]
 
I do the same thing when I teach people how to drive.We sit in a parked car the student makes engine noises
and pretends to drive.
 
Part of the issue is that NRAInstructor may not be from Mass ( they mention Rhode Island permits)

In mass, you are required to teach the course, and the whole course, plus the Mass Gun Law stuff to issue the Mass Cert.

There are several approved courses that are good for LTC that have no live fire.

I have no long history of hundreds of students (just took the Instructor's course) but the Instuctor's course was for both the Basic Pistol and Home Firearm Safety courses, with the clear understanding that they were both Mass-approved, but not the same thing, and that the live fire was a required component of the Basic Pistol
 
I believe the NRA was making a stink awhile back over people substituting simulators or air soft for the required shooting portion of NRA Basic Pistol, so I'm nearly 100% that live fire is a requirement of the curriculum. It is when I teach it.

Just to pile on trivia, LTC-001, the MCOPA course, also has an optional live fire component.
 
Here is a memo the NRA sent to instructors, dated Nov. 3, 2011:

Dear NRA Instructors and Training Counselors:

Due to NRA’s long history of facilitating quality firearm training, the public expects a high standard for training programs bearing the NRA name. Maintaining the high quality of the training programs is of the upmost importance.

The National Rifle Association of America currently has no online firearm training courses. All of our firearm training courses (Home Firearm Safety excluded) have a shooting component on a range. Some NRA certified instructors have created online firearm training programs, and have issued certificates to individuals that take their courses, using the title NRA Certified Instructor. Under no circumstances may NRA’s name or your NRA credentials be associated with any online firearms training course. If NRA’s name or your NRA credentials are associated with a course, you must, among other things, actually work with the students, face-to-face, to allow you to evaluate whether they perform the safe operation of a firearm, and shoot with a sufficient level of skill. This policy applies to any course which might result in issuing any certificate that bears the title of NRA Certified Instructor, or if the course is associated in any way whatsoever with a certification issued by the NRA.
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You will need an NRA Instructor login to read the original here: https://www.nrainstructors.org/InstructorAdmin/docs/shgfd43shgfdaku/nratrainingpolicyupdate.pdf
 

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